The different Irish styles - Clare, Sligo, Donegal, etc.

[callahan]

Hi
this is not all that easy. there are different styles of fiddling in donegal, depending on which area you are going to.

This is what I understand, yes... that Donegal ( while known as
a major 'style' unto itself ) tends to have more variation within
that region than a lot of other places in Ireland.

But it still seems that there are COMMON ELEMENTS to MOST
of the 'Donegal' styles that make a Donegal player 'feel comfortable'
anywhere in that region, musically speaking.

These would be the things I am most interested in.
The things that make it NOT-Clare or NOT-Sligo, fer sure.

I am placed at the north west costline, and the style around here is strongly influenced by players like James Byrnes, the Campbells from the older generation who taught a lot of younger players now in their 20 - 30'. Around herre the highlands are very popular, literally a;most every reel can be revamped and become a highland. then, its not all stacato either, -- its much about getting a good tone out of the fiddle, and its more singlbowed. the timing is straight.
John doherty was influencial, as he travelled a lot in the county and thereby spread a lot of tunes, but he had his very own style of playing, which is was very artistic.

No question. I have met and had conversations with a number
of the members of Altan and they all speak highly of John.
They have always, and still do, play a LOT of his tunes.
He was a 'style' unto himself... but he was STILL from 'Donegal'
and can still be identified as such. My question is WHY.
What were the 'essentials' of his playing that made it
NOT-Clare or NOT-Sligo or NOT-Kerry. The jury is still out.

Now, if you go about 50 miles up the road to gwedore, Francy Mooney is the most influencial man on the fiddle, now well in his 70'. and he plays different than the above.

Okay... How so? Specifically?
What does he DO on the instrument that makes is
'different' and are there still COMMON 'Donegal'
elements in the playing? If so... what?

Or if you go to east Donegal, say Raphoe, convoy, the fiddling is different again.

Hate to sound like a broken record but, again, in what
way is it 'different'? Specifics, please.
Is it a total departure from 'Donegal' or do those
'common' elements still remain?

Now, we fiddlers all know and meet eachother at occasions, so there is some common ground in the selection of the tunes, the phrasing etc.
But the differences are just as different as the landscapes, or maybe, if i express it like that:
Clare music suits Clare and really sounds well there, so does the south Sligo music suit that area and the Donegal music does so for Donegal.
It's only when traveling to clare of Sligo, I would realize, that i play the music differently, or that the music there sounds strange.

I hear ya... and I understand exactly what you are trying
to say... but let me continue to play devil's advocate for
a moment.

You said "It's only when traveling to Clare or Sligo I would
realize I play the music differently"

In that moment of realization... exactly WHAT IS IT
that makes you realize you are a 'stranger in a strange land',
musically speaking.

Is it the sudden lack of bowed triplets or the distinct use
of VOLUME for accents versus rock-steady volume or
a sudden lack of what your musical sense of 'drive'
is or what? There have to be things coming to your
ear that tell you "Geez... that's not what I do".
What ARE those things you hear?

You said "...the music sounds so strange".

WHY? What are you NOT hearing that you would
EXPECT to hear back in Donegal ( area ).

IMO, it has a lot to do where musicians live, what kind of a live they have, all that influences their music, as much as the blue of the sky, which is different in clare than Donegal.

Of course... but when the sky seems to be so different that
you would ( as you stated above ) find it 'strange' then
there's a REASON for that. Blue is a mix of certain gradients
of other colors. Same with music. When it sounds 'strange'
to you it's only because you are either now hearing too
much of something you wouldn't normally hear/do or not enough
of some things you normally would hear/do.

Can you be any more specific?

Later...
Callahan

[callahan]

I got jumped on (hard) when I asked this about piping. HansW has pretty much echoed what I have been told - the people you are listening to on recordings are playing their own personal styles.

Yes... this is why I believe the argument that the ONLY way
to discover the roots of a 'style' are to simply ( and ONLY )
'listen' to recordings. A lot has gone on before a musician
finds himself in a studio in front of a microphone and someone
counting off the start from behind a glass wall.

Musicians are musicians... and no one every WANTS to be
told "Hey... you sound EXACTLY like so-and-so"... but that
doesn't mean that people are not still adhering to a basic
'style' underneath the personal nuances they have added.

It's that 'basic' style and the inherent RULES that I am
after here.

If someone CALLS themselves a 'Donegal' player or
says "I play SLIGO style" or "I prefer CLARE"... then
exactly what do they base that on?

This is what is fascinating to me and seems to be
emerging from the discussion.

If two people come from the same area, they may have had common influences, but they are still mostly playing differently from each other.

Yep... but you said it yourself... "common influences".
That's more than just 'someone'... it's a 'something'
and it's a WAY OF PLAYING.

The similarities convince listeners from outside to lump those players together, but the players themselves don't agree that they are playing the same style, and object to being pigeon-holed.

Keyword: 'Similarities'.
For some 'styles'... they are ALWAYS there... or you aren't
anywhere 'near' the style and no one 'lumps' you with anyone.

Might be a funny way to rephrase what you just said but
I would do it like this...

"When players who don't want to get lumped together with
other players get lumped together with other players then
what is it that's causing the lumping? It's got to be something
and it's got to be identifiable or there wouldn't be any
'lumping' going on at all."

Perhaps it would be safer to say that people who share common influences have similar styles, but they don't represent entire regions, just their own localities. The idea of forcing constraints on style comes from outside the tradition, not from within.

djm

Well... that is certainly true.

Until American record companies started travelling to Ireland
in the 1920's and 'recording the Masters' most people on the
island had little idea there were so many variances in playing
styles at all or that they could be 'lumped' into various regional
'categories' and given a name. The 'names' for these 'regional
styles are, in all reality, a modern invention.

But... all that being said... it's the year 2005 and not 1920
and these identifiable 'styles' are still going strong so there
has to be something to it all.

The devil is in the details... and that's what I
find most fascinating. It comes down to a WAY
of playing that is 'identifiable'.

Later...
Callahan

[MurphyStout]

______ has read all the books about piloting an airplane (especially the indian models), but never piloted one. Would you have him as a pilot?

Groove, rthym, note selection, articulation, ornamentation.... etc. are what styles are made of. You really can't talk about such things... you just have listen to them and mimic them. That's the last I'll say cause I think I'm wasting my time.

And I don't feel as though I need to offer clips to try to validate myself.

[callahan]

I think where whistling style is concerned, sometimes there is a tendancy to follow flute/piping/fiddling styles of the respective regions.

Exactly. No question... so there ARE these styles and people
everywhere DO try and 'duplicate' them on their respective
instruments. If 'bowed triplets' are prevalent in that style then
you do a lot of 'finger jamming' on your button box. If not,
then you don't... etc, etc.

What's fascinating here is WHERE that kind of specific
'to finger-jam or not to finger-jam a triplet' information
comes from.

Like for some northern/Sligo players, you get northern flute influenced pulsey whistle playing eg. Kevin Henry, Fintan Vallely, Desi Wilkinson, etc. Then in the Miltown region you get more of a Willie Clancy piping influenced whistling.

Would 'Miltown region' rise to the level of a 'style' unto
itself, then, or just a 'variation' of another, broader style?
Did Willie Clancy ever say what 'style' HE played?

When discussing about regional style it is good to consider that the general playing characteristics assigned to each "regional style" is only a very rough guide

Aha! Bingo!

You said...

"The General playing characteristics assigned to each
'regional style'."

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

They DO exist. Of COURSE they do.

So WHAT ARE THEY, EXACTLY?

Who did the 'assigning' and is it codified somewhere?

This 'rough guide' you speak of is EXACTLY what I
am looking for at this point in time.

Does it exist?

I haven't seen it yet... even with all the links posted
so far and been searching far and wide.

Does it look like the DO and DON'T list that I
started this thread with? Could it?

and like djm mentioned within a region there are players that play quite differently i.e. ornaments, sparseness/floridity of playing, phrasing, legato/staccato. Its definitely safer to talk about influential musicians in the region influencing the styles of the musicians in the locality.

That said, I have given it some thought and have a theory that if we were to start disecting things there is only one factor, rhythm, that can unify the styles of a region together. Somehow all the West Clare players play in a similar rhythm, the East Clare players play in a slightly different rhythm, Sligo players play in another rhythm style, Donegal, Kerry, Galway etc. Their individual styles may be different, but I feel that you can distinguish their so-called "regional style" from the rhythm they play in.

Your last point is VERY imporant.

Rythmn is a VERY important part of any 'style'.

We ARE 'dissecting' things. That's the point.

You said...

"All the West Clare players play in a similar rythmn"
"The East Clare players play in a slighly different rythmn"
"Sligo players play in another rythmn style"
"Donegal, Kerry, Galway, etc."
"I feel you can distinguish their so-called regional style
from the rythmns they play in"

Super obeservation and you are probably right... but
2 cents and that gets you to China.

What EXACTLY are the 'rythmn variations' you are
referring to. How can we best DESCRIBE them, here,
and not leave such and important point up in the
stratosphere?

It's a 'fill in the blanks' sorta thing... really...

1. West Clare rythmn = ??
2. East Clare rythmn = ??
3. Sligo rythmn = ??
4. Donegal rythmn = ??
5. Kerry rythmn = ??
6. Galway rythmn = ??
7.
8.
9.
10. Any other major regional rythmn = ??

Later...
Callahan

[callahan]

Groove, rthym, note selection, articulation, ornamentation.... etc. are what styles are made of.

Absolutely. No question... and each of those things, as it
relates to 'style'... means you have to physically DO
SOMETHING a little differently than you would if playing
some 'other' style. They all translate to physical ACTIONS.

You really can't talk about such things...

Yes... you can. We ARE talking about them.

you just have listen to them and mimic them.

Totally disagree. You CAN talk about such things.

One at a time and in great detail... if that's what it
takes to understand them.

It's not voodoo. It's music.

Later...
Callahan

[Cayden]

Introducing Peadar O Loughlin and Ronan Browne's The West Wind Jackie Small described West Clare music as:

The Music of West Clare hear here is unhurried and played for the satisfaction of the player or the listener; with time in a jig or a reel tosavour a particular phrase, to fill out an interval with a felicitous run of notes or linger on a note to bring out it's colour

Which, I think, is as good a description as any of what the different ways of playing within the region have in common.

As pointed out above, there is not one way of playing defyning Clare music, even the four greats of West Clare music of the former generation , John Kelly, Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan and Joe Ryan each had easily distinguishable personal styles but they had in common what Jackie describes above.

That said, in Callahan's first description 'changes in volume' features. This is a feature associated with East Clare music and even there only really with the playing of Martin Rochford and Paddy Canny, to an extend in Peter Woods and today succesfully copied and made famous by Martin Hayes. I am not sure they developed that themselves, that it goes back to pat Canny (the father) or Johnny Allen's fiddle playing from the generation before Rochford and Canny (roughly around 1900), it is certainly a feature not widely used even in East Clare.

Different as they may be. East and West Clare music can mix well, I have on occasion heard Martin Rochford play with Junior Crehan, Canny with Casey and Ryan, O' Loughlin with everybody else, all bringing with them the elements Jackie Small describes above.

Patrick Kelly and Ellen 'Nell' Galvin whom Eldarion mentions above stand alone in a way but fit in well in the style (Nell Galvin contributing many tunes, via Willie Clancy, to the canon of the West Clare repertoire) even while they have a strong connection to the old Kerry/West Limerick styles of playing (through George Whelan and traffic across the Shannon).

Ofcourse north Clare is a diferent matter alltogether, with a strong dividing line (around the moy/Faha area)between the richly embellished ornamental style around Miltown Malbay and the starker, bare style around Doolin and areas further north signified by players like Paddy Killourhy and WIllie 'beg' Shannon etc.

Yet, these different styles within the area mix quite well as tapes of Micho Russell playing with Martin Rochford or the Miltown crowd playing in Doolin with the 'locals' during the 60's show.

Describing Kevin Burke as 'Sligo' is not all that well chosen (although often done) as he was very strongly influenced by both Bobby Casey and Martin Rochford. He played an awfull lot with PJ Crotty while in his late teens and there is a a large chunk of Clare influence in his playing.

As a comparison of several elements David Lyth's book on bowing styles is a good introduction, the second volume has detailed examples of Clare and Kerry players.

[Eldarion]

I think you're missing the point entirely and should really just go and listen. Listen to more good masters of various styles and thats what I think Jack meant when he says do your homework. Excuse me for being frank but the opinions you are putting out tell me that you haven't done enough of that. Use your ears, train them and listen.

If you have done that, it makes all this debating, codifying, verbalising, Grey Larsonifying, or whatever-you-want-to-call-it pretty redundant. Why do you need someone to spell out for you what is Clare style (which/whose Clare style by the way?) when your ears will tell you so much better?

When talking about regional styles, what is actually more pertinent are the old influencial musicians in the region and their influences. Also keep in mind that counties are big places and influences vary from town to town. If you want to learn about styles listen to these influencial musicians. Contrary to popular belief there are no magical borders demarcated by fairies who decide that musicians within these geographical borders must play in a manner strictly conforming to a list of "rules". Thats a totally unrealistic and sanitary way to view things. What makes a style are the people and who they got the music from.

Use your ears dude. No use just talking about it.

[HansW]

Hi
Very lively discussion indeed. What Kiran tourish said there the other night certainly aplies to the inishowen peninsula.
Maybe, a methaphor may explain better our dilemma at the moment: Say, there is a bottle of medicine, from donegal, one from Sligo, one from Clare. there are a few names of local herbs written on it. Now we can look at those bottles and theorize what the content will do to us if we take a spoon of it, and there will be all sorts of opinions. the only way to find out for definate is to take a few spoons and find out for yourself.
I used to live in Wexford for a few years and now for the past more than 10 years live up here and play the fiddle, at least once a week in a session. during the summer months it could be more nights. so-- music forms part of my daily live, is expression of whats on, it's not aboput copying anyone in particular just to play like XYZ.
if anything in general can be said it's that much:
There are different tunes played in donegal that in clare / Sligo, and these tunes are played in a local fashion, its like an accent, mostly unkown to yourself, but if you meet with musicians from other areas you'l find, that they put it differently.
and I think that is it as far as language goes.

[djm]

Cal, Murphy has given you the basis for study. Do not look to modern players like Martin Hayes. His style is unique to him, both physically and musically. If you want to learn Clare style, look to Micho Russell. Do not look to Kevin Burke. His style is considered SW USA (which is why it appeals to a lot of Americans). If you want to learn Sligo go to Michael Coleman or Matt Cranitch. Even Tommy Peoples, who is highly regarded for bringing Donegal style to the south of Ireland, plays in his own unique way. If you want to learn Donegal style look to Francie Byrnes or John Doherty. For Sliabh Luachra/Kerry listen to Pádraig O'Keeffe or Denis Murphy. etc.

To "get" the regional styles, you are best to listen to the older musicians who were the last to learn their styles in a relatively isolated environment. Younger modern players have access to radio, recordings, and travel, and have a huge number of influences that did not exist even 50 years ago. The newer the musician, the less likely they are playing in any "pure" style (unless they are total pedants ).

djm

[susnfx]

Just a little personal note to Eldarion: This is bizarre! I was just thinking about you this morning and wondering if you were still on the board. Glad to know you're still around. Nice to hear from you again.

Susan

Okay. Continue your discussion.

[Cayden]

Do not look to modern players like Martin Hayes. His style is unique to him, both physically and musically. If you want to learn Clare style, look to Micho Russell
djm

No Hayes is not totally unique, some of the material on his first CD came straight from Martin Rochford and Tommy Potts. He borrowed extremely heavily from those who went before and would be the first to acknowledge that. He has made the material his own but saying he is unique only points to you buying the salespitch and not knowing where he came from.

Micho is only one representative of the Clare style, his playing is in a lot of ways vastly different from the whistlestyles played in other areas, even those within walking distance (mind you that would be a good walk but still). How do you think he compares to Willie Clancy, JC Talty, Michaeal Falsey, Joe Cunneen, Michael Davoren, Josie Hayes, Martin Talty, Mickie Cleary, Peadar O Loughlin, Paddy 'Organ' Mullins, Pappie Looney and Jimmy Hogan or even to stay in his own area to his brother Gussie or John Killourhy?

Where do you wanto fit in Bobby Casey and Junior Crehan, what have they incommon and where are they different (considering JUnior learned from Bobby's father Scully and later taught Bobby). That sort of questions arise and you can gain some insight trying to answer them.

And you can only resolve all that stuff by listening a lot and to as many as you can.

[djm]

Peter, you make my point for me. These are all older musicians, many from the same areas, and what they play is different enough from each other that I would say the differences outweigh the similarities, which was my original point. I only suggested a few names, not a whole catalogue. Besides, recordings of several of the players you mention are not generally available, so may as well not exist for someone like Cal who is just starting out.

djm

[Cayden]

Peter, you make my point for me. These are all older musicians, many from the same areas, and what they play is different enough from each other that I would say the differences outweigh the similarities, which was my original point.

djm

Seriously, listening to Willie Clancy or JC play the whistle as compared to Micho you hear more similarities than differences? At the same time considering the distance between their locations is less than 15 miles?

[djm]

I love Micho's playing. He definitely has his own style, but the "feel" of it is everything, and to me his timing is perfect, with each note placed just exactly where it should go.

Interesting that you would mention Willie C as an exemplar of Clare music. I thought his influences were more his father and Johnny Doran.


djm

[Cayden]

Gilbert Clancy pretty much gave young Willie the basic grounding and WIllie's whistle playing was formed (and described by Martin Rochford as 'powerful') before he met Johnny Doran. Willie fits in perfectly with Bobby Casey's music that came from Scully Casey.
I mentioned him because it is all the more interesting how he had this highly ornamented lively style you find around Miltown while literally up the road from where he was born there is the dividing line entering an area (say the townlands of Faha, Clooneyogan and Moy, towards Lahinch)where you find only a much more bare style, as for example the concertina playing of Mary Haren (his grans aunt I think) or today Kitty Hayes (who pretty much has the style of her father Peter Smyth who used to play with Willie's father Gilbert), the whistle and fluteplaying of Jimmy Hogan, Pappy Looney etc that was much more stylistically related to the music of the Doolin area.