Musical sin

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:01 pm

Try it standing on your head, Wom.

No, seriously, I checked during lunch hour to see exactly what I've been doing. It only works on whistles with mouthpieces that slope abou 45 deg. The cheaps with long beaks don't work. Susato's I'm not sure of...didn't have one with me.

I just rest my tongue on the 45 degree slope and tighten up when I'm tonguing. It reduces the "pop" and gives a softer sound. It interferes with the flow of the music less.

But does that matter? Not sure. It's just different.

BoneQuint · Post by **BoneQuint** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:31 pm

Instead of a "hard tonguing" as if you were saying "tu-tu-tu" I often use a "soft tonguing" which is more like "lu-lu-lu." I've also experimented with using the back of my tongue (more like "yu-yu-yu"). You can also get interesting sounds by just fluttering and flicking your tongue around without hitting anything, so to speak...

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:00 pm

Thanks Bone,
I'll try those ideas.

NicoMoreno · Post by **NicoMoreno** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:01 pm

Yu yu -ing is what E=Fb is doing, but he is just doing it with a mouthpiece...

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:22 pm

You know what I've noticed? I tend to tongue a lot when I first learn a tune. The more comfortable I get with it, the less I tend to tongue.

The exception is Morris music. It seems to help the kids to have it played in a fairly staccato style, and it's played relatively slowly, so I tend to tongue a lot more than I do in Irish music.

Redwolf

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:09 pm

Since I don't know anything, myself, I'll resort to quoting:

"Apart from the obvious repertoire differences, what is the difference between Irish and Scottish whistle styles? In direct relation to the different styles of tunes, where Irish tunes are more smooth and flowing, Scottish tunes more angular, irregular and dramatic in terms of intervals, a Scottish whistle style reflects this: Scottish players will tend to tongue more, Irish to slur more."

From http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/gather ... /hist.html

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:50 pm

I'm the same way, Redwolf. Seems like I can only think about one thing at a time... actually hitting the right note is #1. Articulation, dynamics and rhythm come sometime after I've got the notes.

As for tonguing, I find that I probably use it more than others, but have been using it less lately - though still in appropriate places for accents (this will sometimes include a complete phrase). I only tongue with my tongue, but that's mainly because I've never tried anything else.

Erik

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:49 am

Redwolf wrote:You know what I've noticed? I tend to tongue a lot when I first learn a tune. The more comfortable I get with it, the less I tend to tongue.

I think I do this too, at least sometimes. Is this because tonguing helps with the interval jumps while we are still getting used to them?

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:40 am

We also had the tonguing discussion back in December:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=16523

Suffice to say that I'm with Conal O Grada in this.

/Jens

pizak · Post by **pizak** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:03 am

I will restrain myself from all the tonguing jokes to make a serious suggestion... why don't we pick a single tune, and then proponents of tonguing or not tonguing can post recordings on Clips and Snips. Wouldn't this discussion be more fun with some samples?

I personally tongue quite a lot - I like the articulation it brings, but it also depends on the tune. I also find it helps a lot with fast changes of register...

any suggestions? how about the Galway Rambler???

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:12 am

during the last discussion in december I posted a few tunes with loads of tongueing, just to be contrary and to show it doesn't matter all that much if it suits the tune. If I remember well they didn't come out all that great, it was done on the impulse in one go but they are Fox on the Town/Swallow's Nest

amar · Post by **amar** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:57 am

I can't tongue with my tongue, if at all I do it by closing of my vocal chords, meaning "holding my breath" for a very short moment, then, releasing the air again thereby making the sound come out abruptly, so it's in a way tonguing as far back as possible.

so I don't tongue like tu tu tu, but more like ah ah ah

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:08 am

I'm really glad to have started this discussion. It forced me to look more closely at this whole thing. Last night I pulled out some oaks and Generations and I found it quite possible to do the "tongue under the beak" thing.
I like a distinct "pop" when I tongue (maybe my Scottish roots). But our fiddler berates me regularly about it. This method really smooths out the sound. It works.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 am

I never saw much point in this discussion, as iIsaid above tongue as you like. However, i assumed some basic musical taste. I was listening today to a few recordings by boardmemers recommending themselves here without stopping and I must say it dawned on me why the subject keeps coming back. All I can say now is YES you can completely ruin a tune by tongueing notes in all the wrong places, listen to good players and then listen to yourself, spot the differences and then decide if you really want to dedicate a website to your own playing.

__________________________________________

‘Is cuma le fear na mbrog ca gcuireann se a chos’

old irish saying

jking · Post by **jking** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:12 am

i posted some tunes recently with tonguing in them as is the style i play in. I believe in finding your own style. I dont agree with just mimicking a teacher or another whistle player. I have some big influences but try to take certain things from each of them and combine them as a whole to make "my style". As far as not tonguing i would say try and tell that to Brian Finnegan who is one of the most exciting things to happen to whistle playing in years. I find alot of non professional players playing sloppy (no offence to anyone intended) with out tonguing which can cleanly show their phrasing and playing. This is just my 2 cents and im far from being a pro player by any means. I also want to say that the whole traditional view point to me is a dead horse. Music changes, traditions change and if you want to keep the next generation of whistlers (for example) interested then experimentation and fusing of music and styles is going to happen. I know its going to upset those staunch trad players in Ireland that have been playing in the same session for 20 years but in the long run, who cares????

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Musical sin

Tonguing