recording in the field

[bradhurley]

It's a piece of cake to record music from a minidisc recorder onto your G4. As a few other people mentioned above, you can't do it digitally, but that's no big deal: unless you use a very expensive mic and mixer to record to your minidisc, you won't notice any loss in sound quality from the analog output of the minidisc. And you'll end up with digital files once they're on your hard disk.

I have transferred a lot of minidisc recordings to CD or my hard disk, and I have never noticed any significant loss of sound quality. I've tested both with my stereo and it's hard to hear much difference. Maybe the Mac is better at this than PCs.

Your G4 has a sound-in jack. Your minidisc recorder has a sound-out jack. You simply run a patchcord from the minidisc output to the G4's input. Alternatively, you can use a USB-based device such as the Griffin iMic. The minidisc plugs into one end of the iMic and the other end goes in your USB port.

You will need audio recording software to record the sound on your Mac's hard disk. I use Audiocorder, but there are lots of alternatives available, some of them free. If you have iMovie installed (which you probably do as it comes pre-installed on all Macs) you can actually use that to record sound.

You will have to add tracks manually to the sound file, otherwise it'll all be one big track. Audiocorder lets you do that pretty easily; I've never tried it with iMovie. Assuming you're using OSX on your G4, you should then import the sound files into iTunes, where you can convert them to MP3s if you like or leave them in their original format.

The only tedious part of the process is creating tracks. Some recording programs will create tracks for you automatically when they detect breaks in the sound, but these don't work well for session recordings where there's always lots of background noise.

I actually went a different route: I have my minidisc recorder hooked up to my stereo, and I bought a CD player/recorder as part of my stereo system. It has a remote, so I can sit on the couch and add the tracks as I listen while it's recording direct (analog input only, of course) from minidisc to CD. Then I take that master CD and copy the tracks to iTunes on my Mac, and I can burn CDs or put the tracks on an iPod (once I finally break down and buy one!).

I have unfortunately heard terrible things about the Archos recorders. I'm waiting for Apple to come out with a truly recordable iPod.

[bradhurley]

I've been using minidisc for record sessions, lessons, etc. but I've got my eye on one of these:

Marantz PMD-690 CompactFlash recorder:
http://www.marantzpro.com/Products/PMD690.html

Expensive, but definitely worth it if you already have good pro microphones...

I dunno, it seems kind of out there to me: You pay $1260 for the machine, then you shell out another $60-$80 for a 192 MB compact flash card that only gets you only 1.5 hours of stereo recording time at 128bps. If you want to record more, you have to pay more for a bigger compact flash card. If you're using pro microphones and you want DAT-quality sound, you only get 16 minutes of it with a 192 MB card. Even with a 1.2 Gig compact flash card (truly expensive) you only get 1.5 hours of DAT-quality sound and 6.5 hours of stereo compressed at 128 bps.

A good minidisc recorder goes for under $300 and minidiscs are cheap. You can get 12 hours worth' for $20. If you wanted to record 12 hours of music in one go on the Marantz it would cost you $400 or more in compact flash cards. The sound quality of minidiscs is very good (not DAT quality, but most of us aren't that fussy about field recordings).

I do think minidisc is nearing the end of its commercial life -- they'll be around for a few more years, but the market was never very big and it's dwindling. Once good-quality portable hard-disk recording devices become available and affordable, I think you'll see a shift toward them.

[djm]

My point here is that you can still buy a portable cassette deck, mic, and tape for $50 - 60 and get as good recording quality as with a minidisc. You have to do an analog upload to the PC in either case, so why blow the bucks on MD?

I am a bit dubious about portable HD recorders. No-one has solved crashing HDs on laptops (been there, done that), so portable HDs make me nervous.

djm

[Scott McCallister]

Brad has it nailed here folks. I do nearly the same thing he does with the exception that my interface with the computer is a very nice Ensoniq unit (the PARIS 402) and of course the software is a big component here. The CDs I burn from MD recordings are pristine.

For the folks who are getting crappy results by doing an analog 'download' into what ever kind of computer you are using, you may first want to look at your sound card.

You may lose up to 3dB of signal to noise with an analog to analog burn (like when dubbing cassette tapes) So typically you will want to sacrifice some of the recorded signal by rolling off the highs and reducing your noise again. But here you are starting with digital media (the MiniDisc) and ending with digital media Computer or CD. The analog transfer from one digital source to another shouldn't degrade the recording by more than about .1dB...? MAYBE! If you like the sound of your MD's (and I do like mine) and you are getting crappy results in transferring them to CD via computer then you gotta look at the sound processor. :roll:

CD quality sound is achieved at a 44.1kHz sampling rate at 16 bits. The recording industry agreed on this standard because of the average range of human hearing. Going beyond this sampling rate may be good for recording music for, I guess dogs, because it increases the frequency range on the high end. Going beyond this bit size, say to 24bit, allows for greater dynamic subtlety, but here you may be quibbling over weather a voltage gap of a sample is 0.004 greater or less than the established standard. Oh and by the way, you still only get 0.00002 seconds to hear the difference at 44.1kHz, even less at 48kHz. Most people I know do not have speakers that can respond well enough to represent the difference. I would have to guess that these applications are probably most powerful in a studio setting with $8000 microphones and millions in contract budgets to support it. It sounded like you just wanted to get a decent representation of some lesson exercises and tunes at sessions.

I would, however, be interested in seeing what portable cassette recorder people are using to get similar sound quality as MD. Especially for only $50-$60! For that price range I have never seen the type of acoustic or electric insulation you need to keep the mechanics of the recorder from getting onto tape. It also seems the type of noise reduction you would need to come close to the clarity of sound on a MD would push the price way way up and consequently make any tape recorded on that unit pretty bad sounding played back on any other standard deck.

My 2 cents.

Scott McCallister

[bradhurley]

My point here is that you can still buy a portable cassette deck, mic, and tape for $50 - 60 and get as good recording quality as with a minidisc. You have to do an analog upload to the PC in either case, so why blow the bucks on MD?

I am a bit dubious about portable HD recorders. No-one has solved crashing HDs on laptops (been there, done that), so portable HDs make me nervous.

The only cassette recorder I ever owned that equalled the sound quality I can get from a minidisc recorder was my Walkman Pro. which set me back something like $500. What I like about minidiscs is that the media and the recorder are smaller than cassettes, the recorder makes much less noise so you can stick an unobtrusive T mic into the side of it and get very little machine noise on your recording, and the fact that minidiscs have tracks so you can jump right to the tune you want instead of fast-forwarding or rewinding to who-knows-where.

The HD recorders out there now are not getting good reviews, but the technology should be there soon. HD players like Apple's iPod are quite reliable. The iPod is the world's top-selling MP3 player, and people wouldn't be buying it if it didn't work.

I suppose if I didn't have a minidisc already and was trying to decide between MD and cassette, I'd probably go with a cheap cassette recorder and wait for good HD recorders to arrive on the scene. My main concern with MD is that I think it's a dying technology and when my recorder poops out in five years or so I might not be able to find another one very easily.

[AlanB]

Absolutely Scott.

Analog tape is only useful nowadays if your are using pro recording studio style equipment with very wide tape. We had a "professional" studio record some playing at the sessions of a well respected music establishment, (I forget the mics, but it was a HD recorder etc.,) and then a friend recorded some gigs with an MD and a good Stereo mic . The Minidisc won hands down. The recording and subsequent treatment is down to the engineers skills as much as the gear you use (within reason). And if you get the right s/c as I mentioned earlier, you should be able to make a digital transfer via the optical I/O if you've got it. It can be done!!

Alan

[eskin]

Here's my gripes with using Minidisc in the field:

1) Sony's bias toward auto-level on the consumer minidiscs... manual level control is there, but its not the default so you have to select it each time you record.

2) Several of my microphones need phantom power, all my good mikes have XLR connectors, so I have to bring a small mixer with me and more cables between devices. Plus batteries for the mixer, and I have to set the whole thing up somewhere...

3) Mini-stereo jacks aren't very secure compared to XLR. I want to be able to walk around with a Crown SASS-P stereo mike and record live music. I don't want to even think about the cables.

I use Minidisc for music classes, casual recording, but when I want to record a concert or do field recording where I really care about quality, I'm looking for a very simple system that has XLR inputs and lets me easily set my levels and record. I already have a bunch of compact flash and SD cards for my other digital toys (by the way, the Marantz use a PCMCIA slot, so you can pretty much use any kind of media you want) so buying new media isn't an issue.

I really dislike having to have so many different kinds of media i.e. DV tapes, MD disks, DAT tape, cassettes, etc. in my perfect world, its all flash memory for capture, all DVD+R for archive. Goodbye tape and spinning motors in the field...

We're not far from that reality today, just waiting for the full-resolution MPEG-4 solid-state video camcorders to show up later this year, or the new DVD-RW MPEG-2 camcorders from Sony (the DVD-RAM units from Panasonic and Hitachi are DOA as far as I'm concerned because of their choice of media).

Cheers,

Michael

[Tony]

This is all too technical.

In layman's terms... What's the cheapest practical way using a self mic that gets at least 60 minute record time and can do a digital upload to PC unit then??

[eskin]

Hi Tony,

For pure digital, battery powered, with a built-in microphone, you might try the new Fostex MR-8 4-track digital, about $300:

Manufacturer's site:
http://www.fostex.com/index2.asp?file=p ... igital/mr8

reviewed at:
http://www.guitarworld.com/gearreviews/ ... oster.html

only problem is that the built-in microphone is mono, so you'll want to use an external mike for stereo.

other than that, if you want uncompressed audio with a built-in mike and some kind of a digital interface like USB, you're looking at spending more money or giving up quality. Unfortunately, the Pogo products RipFlash MP3 recorder units have such crappy internal microphones, they are useless unless used with an external microphone. (I have one, works great with an external mike if you crank the bitrate up to max). I believe the RipFlash Trio can use a non-preamplied microphone, if you don't mind their mini-stereo to ultra-mini stereo jack adapter, all seems too fragile for me...

Cheers,

Michael

[Tony]

Sheesh, whatever happened to the days when the whole band gathered around a $45 cassette unit to make demo tapes that were just right to send to Aunt Bessie to show her what you've been doing for summer vacation?

[bradhurley]

In layman's terms... What's the cheapest practical way using a self mic that gets at least 60 minute record time and can do a digital upload to PC unit then??

I think first you have to ask why you need a digital upload. If you're an audiophile and super-concerned about sound quality, then okay, go all digital. But if you're just recording sessions for learning tunes later, there's no need to do a digital upload -- you can do it analog from a cassette recorder or a minidisc recorder using the patchcord method I described earlier. If you don't care about sound quality but just want to capture the tunes, you can even buy a cheap microcassette recorder from Staples or Radio Shack for $30 or so, which includes a built-in mic. The sound quality's terrible, but it works for learning tunes; I have friends who have used 'em for years.

You also should ask yourself whether you need to upload to a PC at all. The only reason to do it is if you want to listen to that music on your computer or a portable MP3 player, or if you want to burn CDs. Otherwise you can just leave the stuff on the original media.

[eskin]

Here's an article I wrote a few weeks ago about using the latest generation of Sony voice recorders for grabbing tunes in sessions:

http://www.uptospeed.net/hoi/digitalrecorders.html

It isn't CD quality, but its the quickest and least obtrusive way I've found to grab tunes in sessions as well as have a way to upload the data directly to my PC. The latest recorders from Sony have built-in stereo microphones and support external stereo mikes. I brought one to Willie Week and was very pleased with the results.

Cheers,

Michael

[elbogo]

Very good info here, but still confusing. Brad, which minidisk recorder are you using? And what's a good, not too expensive stereo mic?

I'm not aware of my Mac G4 having optical I/O...?

[AlanB]

That,s why I mentioned getting a s/c with optical i/o, being that G4s are such good machines that it is justifiable to give it good quality high spec., cards.. Mini jacks are just soooooo de trop *mince*

Alan

[bradhurley]

Very good info here, but still confusing. Brad, which minidisk recorder are you using? And what's a good, not too expensive stereo mic?

I'm not aware of my Mac G4 having optical I/O...?

Nope, the G4 doesn't have optical I/O. As I said above, the transfer is entirely analog - you use a patch cord to go from the (analog) headphone output of your minidisc to the (analog) sound input of your G4. The optical input on the minidisc recorder is only used to record digitally from your CD player, if your CD player has an optical out (mine does, and it's a very easy way to make high-quality copies of CDs to listen to while I'm traveling, and it adds all the track separations automatically).

I'm using a Sharp minidisc recorder, which I much prefer over the Sonys, but unfortunately Sharp no longer makes minidisc recorders for the US market. You can buy some of Sharp's Japanese models or Sony's US models from:

http://www.minidisco.com.

I bought all my minidisc equipment from them and was very pleased with their service. Just be careful when choosing your recorder, because the new cheaper models do not have any mic input; they only record through a USB connection to your computer (in other words, they can only be used to record MP3s from your computer). So be sure you pick a model that has a microphone jack.

My favorite microphone for recording sessions is a simple "T" microphone made by Sound Professionals. It costs $50 and you can see it here:

http://www.minidisco.com/sp-spsm1.html

It does a perfectly adequate job; it's not a professional mic by any means and you're not going to get studio-like sound quality, but for the money and the compact size it's very good. It does a great job with the pipes, by the way -- I've used it to record some piping duets and when I listen through headphones or on my stereo it's just like being there again. I like this mic because the mic and minidisc make for a very low-profile combination, unobtrusive in a session where prominent microphones can be distracting or make people nervous. The minidisc recorder itself is so quiet that the mic picks up virtually no machine noise despite being right next to the recorder.

An alternative that I really like and might have to get is their box-and-mic combination:

http://www.minidisco.com/sp-otter1.html

which combines a hard carrying case with built-in mics that are more widely separated than the T mic for better stereo separation. Very cool.

My overall goal is to have a unit that is as small and uncomplicated as possible, while still providing a good recording quality. I don't like adding lots of paraphenalia and cables, bulky equipment, etc -- I want something easy and simple that I can yank out of my pack, slip in a disc, and set up in 10 seconds. I'm not an audiophile; most of the stuff I listen to is scratchy home recordings of traditional musicians from the 1950s and 60s, copies of old session tapes and stuff, so stellar sound quality is not my highest priority. Capturing the music and the moment is more important.

One caveat: if you're going to be recording really loud stuff (like sitting in a small room with 18 pipers sitting around you), you might need a preamp for your mic that lets you plug it into the line-in input instead of the mic input. Otherwise you're going to have a hard time keeping the levels from peaking and causing clipping on your recording. Again, minidisco sells a great one here:

http://www.minidisco.com/sp-preamp3.html