Serpent whistles?

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:39 pm

--quote--
It surprises me nobody commented on the fact your man seems to be proud of the fact he can hardly play the whistle, it always eludes me how anyone lacking in playing capabilities [by his own admission in this case]can be expected to make a really nice instrument.
--endquote--

Although it's true that having advanced playing skills must surely be useful to a maker, I would think that in the final analysis making whistles and playing whistles are two different art forms, and skill in one does not guarantee any skill in the other.

Just because an advanced player knows exactly what he'd like a whistle to do and how he'd like it to respond doesn't mean he has any clue how to take a whistle and give it those qualities.

Similarly, a maker may know that giving the whistle a window of a certain size and shaping the blade in just such a way gives his whistles a wonderful "something"--he just may not know exactly what that "something" can really be used for like an advanced player would.

Just my opinion, probably worth exactly what you paid for it.

Best wishes,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:54 pm

I can see both sides of this argument. I would be a bit leery about taking a martial arts class from an instructor who couldn't do the forms.

Then again, baseball hall-of-famer Tommy Lasorda managed the Dodgers to 2 World Series titles, and managed the 2000 Olympics gold-medal team. But, I imagine that his batting average is nothing special.

In the end, the only thing we can do is wait for some reviews.

Greg

On 2002-08-26 15:39, peeplj wrote:

Although it's true that having advanced playing skills must surely be useful to a maker, I would think that in the final analysis making whistles and playing whistles are two different art forms, and skill in one does not guarantee any skill in the other.

tin tin · Post by **tin tin** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:43 pm

Many of the great Boehm flute makers are/were not highly proficient players, and yet their work is sought by the most proficient players.

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 10:27 pm

Hi, Peter,
the fact that I'm not an accomplished whistle player does not mean I'm not a musician, with all the weirdnesses that go with that appellation. I played with the KC University band and orchestra (oboe and cornet, for a weird mix), and with the KC Civic Orchestra (first English Horn, 2nd oboe) for a number of years. I don't have a tin ear, even though the whistles are alleged to be tin!

Not being an accomplished player, also does not mean that I don't know good whistles from bad. I do play, and I get better each time I play. Are you as good as the folks in Music Makers? If not, how can you possibly judge their music?

There is an inherent fallacy in the concept that simply because I'm not a high-calibre whistler, my ear for whistles is crap. Well, it might be. But let's let the judges with C&F make that decision, eh?

I am proud of the whistles I make, folks. And if you find fault, I will fix the problems and be even more proud. Please don't judge me or my whistles until you have heard the music. This is a task I've chosen out of love, not the desire for profit. Heaven knows, there's plenty of competition, and I've seen them. I can tell you unequivocally, I am not the God's Gift to the Whistle Makers. But I am pretty damned good, and getting better with each one I make.

The review whistles ship in the morning. I will be sending them Priority Mail, insured, and the Good Doctor should be getting them in a couple of days. Please withhold judgement until you have heard from him. Or not. Beat on me if you want. I've very thick skin.
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
Serpent Music
http://www.serpentmusic.com

On 2002-08-26 15:19, Peter Laban wrote:
It surprises me nobody commented on the fact your man seems to be proud of the fact he can hardly play the whistle, it always eludes me how anyone lacking in playing capabilities [by his own admission in this case]can be expected to make a really nice instrument.

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 10:34 pm

Hey, Walden... Sorry, I didn't see your post until after I'd already promised your whistle to someone else. And the dog ate the flute ( and died of copper poisoning). Sorry, I'll try to do better next time.
<snicker...>
Bill Whedon
Serpent Music
http://www.serpentmusic.com

On 2002-08-19 14:09, Walden wrote:
Mr. Serpent . . .

I haven't gotten your message regarding my free whistle and flute. If you're concerned about what I would like for the engraving, whatever you choose would be fine.

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 10:49 pm

Folks, this is pathetic. Nobody has forced you to buy this whistle and nobody is trying to cheat you.
Bill simply made some whistles, put up a website for them and offered them for sale.
If you like what you see you can buy one, otherwise don't buy one.
Leave the guy alone and go learn to play your whistles.
Chris

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 11:28 pm

On 2002-08-27 00:34, serpent wrote:
Hey, Walden... Sorry, I didn't see your post until after I'd already promised your whistle to someone else. And the dog ate the flute ( and died of copper poisoning). Sorry, I'll try to do better next time.
<snicker...>
Bill Whedon
Serpent Music
http://www.serpentmusic.com

Okay then. I'll just keep tooting on my out-of-tune East Indian imports in the mean time.
<CENTER>

</CENTER>

. . . and the quest for free samples goes on, and on . . .

_________________
Reasonable Person W a l d e n
Walden is blue at one time and green at another, even from the same point of view. Lying between the earth and the heavens, it partakes of the color of both.—Thoreau

[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-08-27 01:35 ]

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 11:59 pm

Hey, Peter,
do you expect your automobile mechanic to be a world-class driver? Or will you settle for someone who can fix your car properly and in minimal time? As others on this group have observed, making the sort of whistles that I do, is not rocket science. If you can perform the mechanical operations with skill, and have the ability to hear a beat frequency when tuning, dude, you've got it made in the shade!

To be sure, there are nuances, but I am most aware of "good" whistling, and understand that squeaky harmonics aren't Good Things; that the instruments should be comfortable to hold; that people have certain expectations about quality of finish, timely delivery, and service.

If you purchase a whistle from me and you discover that it doesn't meet your expectations, you may return it, and I will refund all of your money, including the shipping cost, and any reasonable expenses you might incur in sending it back. Is that a good-enough guarantee for you?
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
Serpent Music
http://www.serpentmusic.com

On 2002-08-26 15:19, Peter Laban wrote:
It surprises me nobody commented on the fact your man seems to be proud of the fact he can hardly play the whistle, it always eludes me how anyone lacking in playing capabilities [by his own admission in this case]can be expected to make a really nice instrument.

mnavarre · Post by **mnavarre** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am

On 2002-08-26 15:54, Wandering_Whistler wrote:
I can see both sides of this argument. I would be a bit leery about taking a martial arts class from an instructor who couldn't do the forms.

Then again, baseball hall-of-famer Tommy Lasorda managed the Dodgers to 2 World Series titles, and managed the 2000 Olympics gold-medal team. But, I imagine that his batting average is nothing special.

In the end, the only thing we can do is wait for some reviews.

Greg

'zactly. Look at it like this, would you rather buy a sword from a master smith or a master swordsman? One knows how to make them, the other knows how to cut people up with 'em. Just knowing how to hack people up doesn't mean you can make a sword.

personally, I'll wait for the review before passing judgement on Serpents whistles. I hope the reviews are fovorable, 'cuz serpent seems like a heck of a nice guy.

OK,
MCN

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:18 am

Tony, no it's not a matter of market research, the maker has to deliver the good, has to be able to get to every corner of his instrument. I remember one uilleann pipemaker who was as a player in the beginner stages but got big grants to start a pipemaking business. At one point we had him play a Wooff narrow bore D which he insisted was out of tune. According to him the chanter was too long because bottom D was flat. Turns out he never heard of hard bottom [whihc to you whislte players is athe proper way to play the bell note]. The first thirty chanters or so he sold were all in tune and fine to his ear but would have been about a quarter of an inch too short for anybody who could actually play the instrument.

I have also seen flutes made by makers with a less than standard embouchure, they sounded fine when they played them [because they were voiced to their way of playing] but had some very strange corners for most fluteplayers.

When a maker comes forward saying initially he is a less than mediocre player, to me that does not inspire confidence.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:07 am

Peter,
Uilleann Pipes seem to break the general rule here. I've commented on the Uilleann pipe forum just the other day about the makers I know, are also accomplished pipers.
But, it seems to hold true for other quality instruments, that many great instrument makers are at best, average players.

To the world of whistling Serpent has only been in existance for about two weeks and seems to have come under more scrutiny than all the other makers combined!
Have we asked Burke, Reyburn, Tully, Hoover, Busman, Copeland, Schultz, etc. to auditon for us and only buy based on their ability to play?

Peter, I enjoy the stand you take on many topics here, even if I feel more middle-of-the-road on many of the issues. I'm glad you share a side of life that helps to enrich the lives of others the way it does.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:09 am

On 2002-08-27 01:59, serpent wrote:

If you purchase a whistle from me and you discover that it doesn't meet your expectations, you may return it, and I will refund all of your money, including the shipping cost, and any reasonable expenses you might incur in sending it back.

Fair enough.

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:26 am

Standing up for Serpent here. I myself am a pretty fair amateur whistler, but by no means world class. Still, I'd like to think that the whistles I make are pretty good, despite my lack of pro-player status. I have had the occasion to have two of the generally acknowleged BEST players in the world check out my whistles, and to actually hear one of them playing them, and they both liked them quite a bit. Gotta tell you, in the hands of a pro, it sounded a LOT better than it did in my own amateur hands.
To a very large degree, instrument making is a mechanical process: you cut a piece of wood to a certain dimension, make the bore to a specific diameter, put specific sized holes in specific locations, and the laws of physics dictate that specific notes will come out. When I questioned Glenn Schultz about whether I could truly learn this craft, he quipped "Simple! Even a Podiatrist could do it".
I eagerly await the Serpents, and will dutifully report my findings.

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:49 am

I have to agree with Peter. In my experience, in the case of whistles in particular (this assumes a whistle is meant for playing Irish traditional music on): unless the maker plays traditional music, and plays it fairly well, the danger is that he or she will make an instrument that may sound better to their ears but which doesn't behave the way experienced players will want it to. I can think of a few whistles of which this is true.

Of course if a maker is open to feedback from experienced players, there's nothing to stop him or her from producing instruments they will like.

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:55 am

On 2002-08-27 07:49, StevieJ wrote:
I have to agree with Peter. In my experience, in the case of whistles in particular (this assumes a whistle is meant for playing Irish traditional music on): unless the maker plays traditional music, and plays it fairly well, the danger is that he or she will make an instrument that may sound better to their ears but which doesn't behave the way experienced players will want it to. I can think of a few whistles of which this is true.

Of course if a maker is open to feedback from experienced players, there's nothing to stop him or her from producing instruments they will like.

I actually know what you mean. Even though I don't play at a professional level, I do have a good ear for the music. I can tell you that my whistles aren't "brassy", yet they can produce all the proper overtones for the Irish genre. Where they excel is in the realm of airs, where a very smooth, almost flute-like quality seems often desirable. I don't think they're quite "right" for pieces like "Jean's Reel", for example, but simply stellar for "Inis Oirr" or "On Castle Rock", which are a couple of pieces I began on, and now think I play pretty well.

To be candid, I believe that if I get good enough (read "fast enough") to do the "Jean's Reel" sort of whistling, I think that I'll play an old-style Clarke for that, as that "brassy" tone, plus the ease with which they produce the lilting overtones would be paramount.

So much for high whistles. I actually began with making low whistles, and those are the ones I think are both the best-sounding, and the most difficult to make properly. Mine are all moderately "breathy" by design, and require some pretty good lungs to play. So I have a question for the watching Makers of Whistles -- What say you to the concept of attaching a high-whistle head to a low-whistle body? Sort of a "FrankenWhistle" thing!

That's my current "off-line" construction project. Your opinions, direction, suggestions, or sneering, are humbly solicited!
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
Serpent Music
http://www.serpentmusic.com