Flute or Player: You Decide...

[Loren]

Loren's last post is dead on the money. I wish you'd let yourself go a bit further really though mate, I'm a bit sorry that you had an attack of diplomacy just as you were about to hit full flow.

Busted. Guilty as charged I'm afraid.

I do miss the "old" Loren sometimes.

Excellent post (with regards to all that I haven't quoted) bepoq.



Loren

[Cathy Wilde]

<snip> - you are likely to change what you mean by perfect as you get better.[/i]

I wholeheartedly agree. Once again, it's a process thing.

(I dug the rest of your post, too.)

So does this start circling back to the "play the heck out of the flute you have" discussion?

[Loren]

So does this start circling back to the "play the heck out of the flute you have" discussion?

Careful, I sense the Old Loren struggling to get out.....


Loren

[GaryKelly]

I have the cheat sheet, so I'm not allowed to participate. But FWIW, I was in the ballpark!

You thinks ?

[Dave Parkhurst]

hmmm.... needs a bodhran

dave

[flutefry]

Back from a trip, and came across this thread. FWIW, I couldn't hear any differences.

Having said that, I am listening through my computer placed under my desk, so I think only gross differences could be detected.

Hugh

[totokots]

Alas, my ears are ruined from years of piping , but I will hazard the followng guesses regarding this interesting exercise:

The first flute plays until 6 seconds in, the second until 9 seconds in. A fourth flute plays from after 25 seconds, and this flute plays until the end of the piece.

I know nothing about flute styles or makers. But I'm pretty sure they are all flutes.

Do I win £5?

[Jens_Hoppe]

Excellent post (with regards to all that I haven't quoted) bepoq.

Super... I also agree with most that bepoq wrote. How about

A listener, will hear a driving, percussive, fairly raw sounding march coming off either flute (though at those extremes of size the Hamilton should be a good bit louder).

Louder?

but I am damn sure that Desi knows as he plays them and that he hears and, more importantly, feels the difference as he does.

Difference?

Likewise, there is no doubt that the flute makes a significant difference to a player's playing even if not always to the way you hear it.

Significant difference to a player's playing?


Jesting aside, I think the most important point of bepoq's post is that of looking from the player's point of view. Because, naturally, people will be describing the flutes they play based on their own impression, not that of the Joe next to them who might not hear any difference. So a player might describe his new flute sound as "wooden": To other people it might not sound terribly different from his other flutes, but it might be a perfectly valid description in the player's own mind. And if there is some objective quality in the flute which causes player A to hear a wooden sound when he plays it, perhaps player B will also think "wooden" when he plays the same flute.

Agreeing that this is to a large degree a discussion about subjective terms, it also makes flute (s)hopping perfectly valid. No, you will definitely not become a better player or necessarily sound markedly different by changing flutes, but your flute playing might well sound and feel different to you. Important or not?


That being said, I do feel a bit sorry for Gary (with so few people taking his test), so here's my take on the recording:

At 6-7 secs or so the sound becomes a bit louder and I think the pitch rises a bit. Again there's a slight change in loudness at 10 secs. I can hear no changes in the sound after that (ie. the whole B part sounds the same to me). The first few notes of the tune sound a bit muffled compared to the rest, where the sound is more "hard" or "sharp" (there's adjectives for you! ).

No, I don't know whether these perceived changes mean that different flutes are being played. For all I know they do, but the player changing his embouchure a gazillionth of an inch, moving a bit in the chair etc., could of course cause the same changes. In the same way, since the player accounts for most of the resulting sound, different flutes may well be played even when I can't hear any difference. The first few muffled notes of the tune sounds like it's probably just the player "finding" his embouchure.

No clues as to the actual flute(s) being played, of course. Looking forward to the answer.

[Flutered]

In the spirit of science, here are my limited observations but I must admit that changes in the background give as much aural clues as the tone of the flute(s) to me.
There are discernible changes at 03 secs, 10 secs, 14 secs, 20 secs and 24 seconds. But could be just 1 or 2 flutes recorded more than once with different bits spliced together. Bet you there's a 'cheap pakistani' flute if you'll excuse the term, in there!!

[Whistlin'Dixie]

Gary, and others, I have only just listened to the track (a victim of too much work lately)
I'm sure this is quite wrong, and I promise I didn't look at the result...
But this is what I think I hear.

Changes at "roughly" 5 sec, 10 sec, 14 sec, 20 sec, 25 sec and I think 30 sec.
7 flutes?

I think the first and last are pratten style flutes (Hammy?)
I think there is a Doyle in there, and a Murray.

Wood type, I couldn't tell.

Yes, I think they all sound roughly the same, as a listener.
But I very much agree that the feel of the flute under one's own fingers, and the quality of sound under one's own ears is the most important qualifier of all, to an individual player.

Good job of splicing, editing, Gary! Fun test!

M:party:

[I.D.10-t]

Okay, I want to read the answer thread so I will have to comment now.

I think four to five flutes.

I thought that the first quarter sounded muffled*. It did not seemed to be as crisp as the rest of the tune. In that I mean that it's notes seemed less defined than the rest of the clip. The section 6/8-7/8 the way though the tune sounded well defined, but raspy the first time I listened, but now I cannot hear what I thought I heard. It sounded like the flute was being pushed to the point of flipping to the next octave, but now I think I must have been imagining.I like the last ¼ of playing the best.

Now to go and find out that I like the cheapest flute.

* What I think is muffled, may be what others think is “warm” sounding.

[dhamilingu]

Hi Gary et. al,

Just wanted to post my answers before reading the results. My time references are from the start of the sound file - subtract one second if you want to refer to the sound of the actual playing.

I heard a flute change at almost 10 seconds, then at 14.5, then at 22.5. There may have been another change at 33 seconds into the recording, but upon repeated listenings I don't think so.

So that's four flutes to my ears. The first one definitely sounded the most "mellow", but that could have been mic placement or even physical location as the ambient noise sounded different. The fact that that part of the tune is in the lower register could also contribute somewhat to "mellowness" (at least as compared to the higher B part).

The second one sounded the loudest to me - maybe this is what "honking" refers to?

The last two flutes sounded very similar to me - brighter than the first, and softer than the second.

I don't know enough about flute models or woods to speculate on those aspects of the test.

I will also comment that, as a flute beginner, I'm really trying to focus almost entirely on embouchure and tone at the moment. And one thing that I've noticed is that in a single hour, as I play with different embouchures and blowing techniques, I'm achieving a wide range of different tones (none of them good). My point is that, in the hands of someone who knew what she was doing, a single player and flute could (in theory) be responsible for all of the tonal differences heard in the test and far more.

Thanks for putting the time into the splicing, Gary.

Pete

[Jennie]

My turn, so I can look at the answers.

I listened about twenty times. I must have a very undiscerning ear, because I heard only two.

The first one, mellow and muted. Is this the dairy sound? Buttery and creamy?

The second, breathier and sounding more "pushed". And I did notice an intonation difference in the C nat held note in the repetition of the first phrase. To my (classically trained) ears, the first one sounded more "in tune" on this note. Not an issue for the ITM player whose ear is in that groove though.

I would only guess that the first flute is Rudallesque, because of what I've read. And the second more Prattenesque, that is, bigger. Again, more due to reading than experience or careful listening for differences in models. Most of my listening is more focused toward the music itself or the player's style.

Jennie

[bepoq]

For reasons that I mentioned earlier, I think that this "experiment" completely fails to prove the point, one way or another, that the original poster was intending. However, I've finally got where I can give it a go and it is quite fun so I'll have a shot anyway. I've no doubt whatsoever that I won't get within a mile of the right answer. By the way - if you had a baseline to go from - that is you knew the player's sound on his regular flute, the experiment might be more useful as then you could here changes in light of a fixed notion of his sound.

Anyway, there is a definite change at 9 seconds and another at 21-2 (not so definite). I think that there might also be one at 14, but if there is, it is useless as regards the experiment as it comes between the tune and the turn and so the flutes (if it is only one there) timbre would change between the octaves anyway. The first is from a softer, more muted sound to a clearer, and more focused one. I don't think it is the wood, even if the wood is different on the flutes, I would put it down to the maker I think though it could be unlined or could be just not as precisely cut and embachure. Could it be the first is (see this is another reason I'm useless at this, can't even think of the name of the bloke I'm on about.) the flute maker McGoldrick used to play before he got Grintered? The last flute I would hazard might be a Grinter which would make it most probably a rudall sort. Olwell for the second - nicholsen model. Ah. this is ridiculous. I'm talking rubbish with this identification stuff and I know it. I reckon most anyone else who doesn't know the player is too. This does not work the same way as wine tasting. There are too many flutes out there in too many styles and with too many different embachure cuts (I don't mean shapes) for this to make any real sense when you throw them against someone elses lips for the first time and then pass the result through a couple of computers and various other electronics to my ears. If the original poster (Garry is it?) can let go of the necessity of proving a point that doesn't need proving, I reckon he would acknowledge this too. Sorry to have wasted your time with this reply.

[GaryKelly]

I would only guess that the first flute is Rudallesque, because of what I've read. And the second more Prattenesque, that is, bigger.

Here's one of the points you don't think needs proving, bepoq.

People believe what they read around here when it's repeated over and over again. And they might spend a shedload of money believing it too, only to end up disappointed when their shiny new Rudall doesn't magically produce "a sweet second octave" or their new Pratten's bottom doesn't honk or rattle windows.

Loren summed it up nicely a few pages back.

(not picking on you Jennie, but your quote struck an appropriate chord in light of bepoq's post)