Non-sticky: Not Posting Clips

[Rob Sharer]

As a regular peruser of/contributor to this forum, I've encountered the debate over the posting of clips on this forum time and time again. It's apparent that this argument is likely to crop up in almost any thread at any time, wherever opinions clash. The argument for posting clips tend to run like this: we should all post a clip of our playing, in order to allow anyone who reads our opinions and advice to evaluate our words. The argument against is a bit harder to characterize, but runs to: 1) no one should be forced to post a clip, 2) we don't need a two-tiered community here, in which only clip-posters' opinions matter, 3) requesting that a clip be posted is tantamount to bulllying, or is a control issue.

My own opinion on this subject is already out there, but to recap: I think anyone who gives advice, posts flute reviews, or criticizes the playing or the opinions of others here should absolutely post a clip. To answer the above arguments, I offer this, out of order:

1) I agree that no one should be forced to post a clip. The posting of clips, just like the posting of any sort of writing here, should be voluntary. It does, however, get very hard to defend the refusal to post a clip when one is continually engaged in the posting of opinions and/or reviews here.

3) I can certainly imagine that the requesting of a clip could be used as a method of control, or to bully someone. I would be horrified if someone were hounded out of here for their refusal to post a clip. However, if you are one of those posters who is extremely prolific and chooses to become involved in nearly every debate here, don't be surprised when others ask to hear you back up your opinions with a bit of music. It's entirely reasonable to expect you to do so when you voluntarily choose to get involved at this level.

2) The argument that a two-tiered system would be created through the posting of clips is overly simplistic and misleading. I suspect that anyone making this argument is trying to create a straw man to divert attention from the real question. No one is advocating for a two-tiered forum merely by requesting that clips be posted. I remember another discussion about appointing some senior members who would have a special designation; that is a two-tiered system, and I don't like the idea. Who would get to decide? What's the threshhold? When we're merely talking about posting clips, it's allowing everyone here to hear some music and use that information to decide how to take the writings of the poster in question. There's no tiers involved, only the real-world continuum of skill, experience, and knowledge that we all actually inhabit.

As I said, this issue is going to come up again and again. I think it should. The "posting clips" sticky was created to allow us a venue to sort out this issue once and for all; for some reason, the stance around here has softened somewhat over time. In the spirit of a return to what I think was a very good idea, let me say it again: if you're going to be one of the debaters here, if you're going to review flutes (especially by makers who are still producing work, and whose customer base could conceivably be affected by your opinion), or if you're going to advise people on how they should be learning or playing the flute, you need to post a clip of your own playing for others to hear. It is the ONLY fair thing to do for all concerned. Cheers,

Rob

[Dale]

I agree with much of this, but at the same time this whole post a clip to prove your worth thing bothers me.

It does carry with it a sort of message like: "You can't post reviews/opinions/advice on the forums without being willing--not just too play an instrument well--but accumulate the hardware necessary to create clips, learn how to use them, learn how to post them, take the time to do so, etc. etc." I don't think it's fair. People are free to conclude on their own that they'll more readily take the advice of someone who they've heard play than someone they haven't. It's really not that difficult. But, to go further and say, you've not posted clips so why should anyone listen to you? really is unfair.

[Rob Sharer]

Maybe I didn't make it clear, Dale, but I think it's not a case of "why should I listen to you?" You're still applying a dichotomy, one of those who should be listened to and those who shouldn't. It's much more organic than that. I trust everyone here to be able to make an informed, nuanced evaluation both of someone's playing and of someone's writing, and of the place where opinion and ability merge.

I myself talk a much better flute than I play - who doesn't? But anyone listening to my humble clip ought to be able to tell that I've picked up a flute before, can make a sound on it, and know a bit about the music. When I then post about playing or flutes, anyone who's heard my clip can say, "Oh, that guy. He's no Michael Flatley, but he's not a total loss either."

At least, I hope they'd go that far...

Rob

[Cayden]

Agree by and large on all points

Maybe not limit it to the flute forum alone.

[Blackwood]

a few thoughts:

I think Rob presented the issue very fairly and comprehensively and I agree.

Reviews, in my humble opinion, are delicate territory for several reasons.
1. Whether we like to admit it or not we are all subjective and we've all made very different experiences.
2. Nobody has experienced all the available flutes out there, especially not in one place in one time, so comparisons are influenced by skill, time and memory. A player may have tried a flute from a maker 5 years ago, couldn't get a note out of it and developed a bad impression, yet it may have been the players skill level and quite frankly it could have been the maker at that time, makers improve as well!
3. No flute, by a given maker is exactly the same, they have different qualities. I'm sitting on multiple keyed Olwells right now, they are all fantastic, but they also have different nuances.
4. I've seen situations where an advanced really good player couldn't get a good tone out of a particular flute, while another had 0 problems. It happens, peoples embochures are different, they react differently to how a particular embouchure is cut. What works for one player does not work for another. Some people can play anything.
5. In this context reviews are very dangerous and quite frankly borderline presumptuous. You are reviewing other peoples work and their livelihood. Remember making flutes does not come with health insurance and a 401K. For someone then to compare someone's flutes in quality to some other maker in a public forum is taking on some reasponsibility and accountability that in my opinion, only highly qualified people, if any, should do. There are many new players on this forum who, like it or not, will be influenced by what others write. We cannot make assumptions about what they believe to be credible or not.

For myself, I've played many different flutes over the years and I've learned a lot, talking with other people, listening to other people, playing for myself, all the while realizing skills shifiting etc. And I'd be happy to give anyone my opinion, but I would never offer reviews in public. I just don't think it is my place to do.

[Dale]

Well, look, there's no more conspicuous example of this situation than me. I used to review a lot of whistles, largely because almost no one else was in like, you know, 1998. As I've stated, I'm no virtuoso and, over time, I've played less whistle and, mercifully, people who actually know what they are doing have shown up here. (That said, I don't think I gave positive reviews to many crappy whistles.) I've stopped reviewing, stopped taking whistles for review, and have stepped out of the way of people who are actually good players. So it goes. Now I can proudly say that I founded a pretty good musician's spot on the web and I'll hang around and you guys can feed the old man scrambled eggs and humor me for having spawned all of this.

[Dale]

a few thoughts:

I think Rob presented the issue very fairly and comprehensively and I agree.

Reviews, in my humble opinion, are delicate territory for several reasons.
1. Whether we like to admit it or not we are all subjective and we've all made very different experiences.
2. Nobody has experienced all the available flutes out there, especially not in one place in one time, so comparisons are influenced by skill, time and memory. A player may have tried a flute from a maker 5 years ago, couldn't get a note out of it and developed a bad impression, yet it may have been the players skill level and quite frankly it could have been the maker at that time, makers improve as well!
3. No flute, by a given maker is exactly the same, they have different qualities. I'm sitting on multiple keyed Olwells right now, they are all fantastic, but they also have different nuances.
4. I've seen situations where an advanced really good player couldn't get a good tone out of a particular flute, while another had 0 problems. It happens, peoples embochures are different, they react differently to how a particular embouchure is cut. What works for one player does not work for another. Some people can play anything.
5. In this context reviews are very dangerous and quite frankly borderline presumptuous. You are reviewing other peoples work and their livelihood. Remember making flutes does not come with health insurance and a 401K. For someone then to compare someone's flutes in quality to some other maker in a public forum is taking on some reasponsibility and accountability that in my opinion, only highly qualified people, if any, should do. There are many new players on this forum who, like it or not, will be influenced by what others write. We cannot make assumptions about what they believe to be credible or not.

For myself, I've played many different flutes over the years and I've learned a lot, talking with other people, listening to other people, playing for myself, all the while realizing skills shifiting etc. And I'd be happy to give anyone my opinion, but I would never offer reviews in public. I just don't think it is my place to do.

Good post. I agree, although I'd just add that I have seen a few instruments in my life that were OBJECTIVELY bad. But, your points are excellent.

[Gordon]

I wrote a response to Rob on the other, less appropriate thread about 8-key flutes before I saw this "non-sticky", so I won't repeat myself here.

I agree with Blackwood's points, and echo Dale's sentiments as well. Rob, I see your point(s) and in a slightly nicer, more perfect world, would agree with you. I repeat my apologies for inflamatory reactions to other posts in the past on this subject, but this topic pushes buttons for me, and for that I can't apologize. If this were a pub, and joining in and applauding or not was based upon first proving musical abilities, we would never play before anyone but seasoned musicians. Moreover, many seasoned musicians would walk out, insulted, without ever pulling forth their instrument.

[Cork]

Hello, everybody,

My being a protagonist in regard to not posting clips, I though it appropriate that I chime in on this discussion.

Yes, I have never posted a clip, but I'll go one step further, in that I have NEVER listened to any of the posted clips, either. That is, here on the Internet, I see each and every one of the posters here in terms of what they say, period. I even have my filters set up so that I can't even see your avatars, so what you write is what I see, and that's all.

Frankly, I really like this place, the C&F forums, and I think the opportunity to post clips is a wonderful thing, and let anybody with a spirit to do so have at it!

However, I've been playing the flute game for a long time, and over time I have learned some things, of which better flute players seem to have in common. In particular, once a player is out of the beginner's box, and has learned to be critical of their own playing, it then follows that they also become critical of all other playing. Call it a sense of competition, but invariably, flute players tend to become critical, and that's just the way of the flute playing world, at least in my experience.

So, it is suggested that those who could be critical in print could also do well to provide something in the way of "evidence" to support their opinions. However, let me suggest that there could as well be reasons to not post clips.

In the first place, this is the Internet, and as an old saying goes, one should believe nothing they hear, and only half of what they see.

Beyond that basic admonishment, however, and with the understanding that all musicians, and flute players in particular, could be critical of both themselves and of other players, perhaps a de facto "ranking" of abilities could represent something of a double edged sword. For instance, it's one thing to post a clip for purely social purposes, and again, I wholeheartedly support such adventures. However, suppose a really good player were to post a really good clip, and then what? Well, to borrow a drag racing metaphor, and frankly, it's not just a matter of getting one's doors blown off, but, what then of the future fate of a superior player? That is, perhaps that player could then become inundated with requests to teach, to a point where that player could then become overwhelmed, and thereafter be simply unable to participate on any of the C&F forums at a level equal to anybody else. In other words, perhaps such an individual could then be regarded as something of an icon. Well, think about that, fellow C&Fers, as perhaps there could be a reason as to why virtually none of the "stars" of the ITM world could choose to post here, eh? That is, perhaps they could be overrun with requests? And, even if they did post here, do you think they could prefer to remain largely anonymous, for such reasons?

I prefer that there be a built in element of doubt as to any particular qualification of anybody who could have something to say on the C&F board. In that sense, moreover, I post as Joe "Off The Sidewalk" Clown, whose word should be questioned. True, I try to give good advise, but let the reader decide for themselves, please.

[cocusflute]

This is silly:

why virtually none of the "stars" of the ITM world could choose to post here, ... is, perhaps they could be overrun with requests? And, even if they did post here, do you think they could prefer to remain largely anonymous, for such reasons?

There are plenty of postings of great players on the net. The reason they don't post here is because we know what they sound like- or we could easily discover what they sound like. Harry, when asked to post a clip, suggested that he'd rather post to a CD that he could sell to us. Now that made sense.

[Rob Sharer]

In the first place, this is the Internet, and as an old saying goes, one should believe nothing they hear, and only half of what they see.

Do you really think people are faking their clips? Oh wait, you've never listened to any. What in the world are you trying to say?

Rob

[sbfluter]

I am not against people posting clips, but I do agree that it seems silly to me that it's almost like a requirement that some people have for others that they must learn to use all the software on their computers in order to play the flute! Not only to record, but heck some people think you must learn to use software to learn how to play the flute as well!

I also think it is silly to expect that only people with really good flute-playing abilities are qualified to give advice, or that advice has to be backed up with proof of one's abilities. A beginner's advice about how much they like their instrument actually might carry more weight to another beginner than some advanced person's advice. The need is not the same among beginners and experts.

And when it comes to things like reviews, it's nice that some advanced player can give their opinion, but much of any review is completely subjective, and any one person's playing ability really carries hardly any weight at all. I'd rather hear a lot of opinions from lots of people of many different abilities in a review in order to glean the trends rather than rely on only a few experts.

[peeplj]

Folks, I've nothing against posting clips, but a clip really doesn't tell you that much.

Suppose somebody plays wonderfully well but they have this obsession with using borax to clean their flute. So they record wonderful tunes, as good as any, and they destroy a flute about every four years.

This may be a wonderful person to ask about interpretation, but you wouldn't want to give their opinion much weight ont he subject of flute care.

But how is a clip going to help you know that?

Or then again, a player who has wonderful skills with the instrument but zero ability to articulate how she plays what she plays?

How about the converse--say a teacher who's listened very deeply and studied the music all of his adult life, but has no skill at all on any instrument? If such a person found our board, you might want to listen to what he had to say, even if he couldn't play a note.

Finally, say you have someone who plays with almost superhuman pyrotechnics, but they don't understand the basic structure of a tune--all they know is to do as much as possible to each and every note? This might sound impressive to a learner, but it doesn't make that player's opinion worthwhile in the wider sense.

Just some thoughts as to why clips are good for what they are, but aren't much good at anything else, if you follow.

--James

[mahanpots]

In the spirit of sharing, I believe everyone who can should post a clip. I know this is a different environment than a session, but, in general, at a session, you don't get to sit in the circle of musicians without offering up a tune.

Just a thought.

Michael

[ImNotIrish]

I think most of you are missing the point... the purpose of posting, listening, and giving and receiving feedback should be to encourage one another, acknowledge common challenges, and provide some direction. Perhaps the greatest reason for posting is the need for affirmation. Knowing one is not alone in a struggle provides greater strength in any challenge. If you are posting sound clips of various flutes, for instance, then this I believe is more of a gray area. Too many variables to really provide enough information. But even so, probably better than nothing.



Arbo
http://www.box.net/shared/f6627kh6og
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