OT: Racism and the Irish

Whitmores75087 · Post by **Whitmores75087** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:50 pm

When my dad was working in Liverpool (England) there used to be signs on some rooming house doors that said "No blacks or Irish need apply". That wasn't so long ago. He'd be 85 if he were alive today.

Tom_Gaul · Post by **Tom_Gaul** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:19 pm

There is a story that in the early days of Irish immigration in Boston, some one wrote under a "Help wanted, No Irish need apply" sign in a store window the following:

Who ever wrote this, wrote it well,
The same is written on the Gates of Hell!

Best wishes, Tom

blood'n'roses · Post by **blood'n'roses** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:57 pm

aye the irish were quite prejudiced against some time back.. much like other 'groups' the jewish, the black, the native american, etc..

people forget that it isnt the color or the religion, but any group that others feel threatened by.. and when the irish were immagrating in droves to avoid the famines, the locals became rather unfriendly with the irish..

it's sad..

Tak_the_whistler · Post by **Tak_the_whistler** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:03 pm

This is kinda an interesting topic to me. Might sounds a bit OT but here's my 2 or 3 cents worth.

First, an example shall serve my point:
One does not have to, or even want to become a 'little green men' when you apply for a job in a pub 'Mars Bar' .

I love Mars Bar, btw. 25p a Bar was a steal (at least, as of July 2002 in Glasgow).

NEway, there's an Irish Pub here in Japan where, I heard, they employ only the folks from Ireland "just for the looks." I do think that it "might" look fine to the eyes of the visitor if you employ people of certain race when emphasising the cultural atmosphere, but not so concerning the employment in general.

Today many co's in Japan refuse the application of non-Jap. person simply because they, as pointed out, "feel threatened by the race". I'm really ashamed as one lil Japanese and I feel terrible about this. Pettit-nationalism, if gone wild, becomes a god and will drive a nation to ruins. It indeed is good to see that some shops (like the Irish pub, former) automatically grants the entrance to a particular people (in this case, Irish), but I want to see more 'local' shops doing the same thing. Why not more foreign workforce?
We should get some more colour, some more variety in looks and minds, you know.

I saw many non-Japanese workers at a sushi-bar in Seattle and, to me, a born'n'bred Japanese (a bit of Scottish hat heart), they did not look out of place. They served me some good sushi, the bar looked Japanese (except for the staff) so that was okay for me. Nae prrablum. I don't think that every single one of the workers at a Japanese food place has to look like Japanese.

Now, this Irish Pub I always spend my Friday nights is run by a Japanese guy, and so far I haven't yet seen one Irish person. And I don't think it's wrong. 'Bob' once told me that as far as he knew there were few Irish staff in the pub, and also gave me a comment, in an Italian accent,

'You don't have to be an Irish to work in Irish pubs, you know."

Irish and Japanese, both can play a whistle, can't they, after all?

"I want to apply for the job" I'm sure that if I apply for the two pubs here, then i would probably get two different answers, and I'd gladly accept and understand both reasons....because I'm not against the policy of one or another.

<><

Peace

Tak_O (Not associated with Taco Bell)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tak_the_whistler on 2003-02-15 23:03 ]</font>

rebl_rn · Post by **rebl_rn** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:18 pm

My grandfather remembered seeing the same signs in Chicago ("No Irish Need Apply") when he was growing up. My father has one of those signs framed in his house. The one he has is dated 1910. The Irish weren't very well accepted at all here in America for a long time. A fun "study" of that is the play "The Irish and How They Got That Way" that was written by Frank McCourt. It is available on video, and has lots of music and comedy in it, yet has its serious moments as well.

Beth

spittin_in_the_wind · Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:33 pm

Tak, you're just too cool, man! The world needs more like you.

Robin

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:50 am

... just as much as the irish is a "racist" people today. I saw it and felt it myself. But it's just human nature I guess, as someone else was suggesting. It takes time to learn to understand and/or accept differences.

Jeferson · Post by **Jeferson** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:23 am

Last week I saw a sign for a Motel posted saying "Cleaning woman wanted." So, I phoned the manager and asked if he really meant that he'd only hire women. He hung up on me.

Who says dinosaurs are extinct? Sad.
Jef

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:55 am

Bigotry against Irish
Bigotry against non-Irish
Racism against people of color
Racism against people not of color
Sexism against women
Sexism against men
Ageism against the old
Ageism against the young

It's all the same thing. It's a lot easier to lump whole groups of people together than to get to know the individual and hate him for who he is as an individual.

nickt · Post by **nickt** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:30 am

On 2003-02-15 19:50, Whitmores75087 wrote:
When my dad was working in Liverpool (England) there used to be signs on some rooming house doors that said "No blacks or Irish need apply". That wasn't so long ago. He'd be 85 if he were alive today.

To be fair, such signs were quite a while ago (and usually inspired by room owners not receiving payment rather than by rabid racism). Such signs, and racist-inspired, have been seen in more recent times in southern states USA (1960s) and South Africa (up to and including 1980s).

In modern day England the Irish are well-liked and live here by the million, quite happily with their English neighbours.

I really don't think dredging up "what my old daddy/granddaddy experienced when he was in such and such place back then" promotes genuine understanding, forgiveness, or the opportunity to rewrite past wrongs.

Lizzie · Post by **Lizzie** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:47 am

But, Nickt, are the English welcome in Ireland today?

Whenever I am somewhere to do with irish music and someone asks me if I have a Celtic background I just say "no" and I never admit to being of English descent.

Liz

dakotamouse · Post by **dakotamouse** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:56 am

When I was a kid I remember seeing signs that said "No Minors Allowed". I thought people who worked in the mining industry must be awfully tough people. But then I also couldn't see why anyone would rotate their tires. Don't they rotate anytime you drive them? Believe it or not I'm not blonde.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:38 pm

There seems to be a tendency to racism with many small nations sharing a background of being too long politically and culturally oppressed by some big bully(ies). It seems that this reaction is part of a self-preservation mechanism which helped them to maintain a distinct culture and the idea of being a nation.
It gets ridiculous when such feelings started from the conscience of being a minority is redirected against another oppressed minority. This can be helped with education, now it will more time to heal against the formerly oppressing majority.
This unelegant attitude found too often with these former minorities should not hide the fact too, that they were oppressed before on the grounds of racial (or cultural) disdain by their oppressors. To be clear, if some Irish are prejudiced against English, one should not forget the Irish jokes still popular in England ?

The examples of such minorities are too numerous, but I'll quote the Irish, as well as the Kurds, Latvians, Finns, Corsicans, Basques, Bengali, Tchetchens, Palestinians, Bretons, etc. And of course, let's not forget the Jews.

One thing that strikes me in this list (just quoting the first crossing to my mind) is the extremely high proportion of these People involved at some stage of their history in terrorism...

nickt · Post by **nickt** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:41 pm

On 2003-02-16 12:47, Lizzie wrote:
But, Nickt, are the English welcome in Ireland today?

Liz

Yes, we are. I've been to Ireland many times, love the place and the people and have always had a warm welcome. The only problem has been with the odd Irish American who seem to think it's the in-thing to dislike English people on account of the past history.

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:05 pm

I'm reminded of a piece of comic dialog from George Bernard Shaw's play "John Bull's other island". A working class Englishman and an Irishman are discussing history. (Since Shaw was born in Ireland the "winner" of this debate HAS to be the Irishman, of course). It goes something like this:
Englishman: "Over the centuries, the working class Englishman suffered just as greatly as the Irish under the oppressive governments of the time. We endured. We coped. We managed. Unlike the Irish, we didn't need to be muzzled".
Irishman: "True, shure there's no sense to be puttin' a muzzle on a sheep".

Another dialog that I was personally involved in when I lived in Ireland:
Person A (spoken partly in jest):"Now quit yer bein' so hard on the English. God loves them, ye know."
Person B: "True. He loves sinners".

It's hard to get the last word in with an Irishman.