What does a REAL irish flute look like?

[I.D.10-t]

Why am I reminded of the phrase "No true Scotsman"?

[Denny]

'cause ya know we hates it when they beg

[I.D.10-t]

I do have to wonder if there has been a return to the old flutes. At some point I thought that Böhm flutes became less expensive and more abundant than the old wooden flutes and were part of the ITM scene. Desire to go back to the wooden flute helped to establish a semi-reproduction and revisiting of the "Romantic flute". A true definition of the "Irish flute" has never been established in the way that the "Böhm flute" has been defined and it shows when you search Ebay. It doesn't have quite the protection of advertisement because of The lack of definition.

[Gordon]

Pleas, don't turn this into a philosofical debape...
I want an Irish flute that is beautiful in my eyes without making it something far from an Irish flute. And I so happen to think that the black ones with half round silver rings are kind of boring. That doesn't mean I have a crisis of some kind over what someone called my whistle years ago. But I don't want a fellow Irish flute player telling me that I could have used the same or less money on something that's more in the traditional way

Nope, don't want a debape, philosofical or not.

But, you do seem to be worried about what others, Irish players or the general public, think your instrument looks like, and you're asking a forum to define what an Irish flute truly is, based in no small part on its appearance. Beauty in all things, including Irish flutes, is personal, subjective, and usually unimportant, except for the owner who either looks at his instrument and thinks "how beautiful!" or doesn't, but plays it as beautifully as possible, or doesn't care, and plays it as beautifully as possible.

Now, what an Irish flute is, actually, is that black stick with silver rings you find so boring. If black and silver don't float yer boat, go for boxwood, or lancewood. But, keyed or not, it's always a long stick with rings, and kinda pretty, or boring, until it's played. Then it might be less so...

[mutepointe]

These folks live to debate, why deny them that joy? They are going to continue to debate this topic long after you have already chosen and bought your flute.

I enjoyed this thread. I learned a lot.

[ImNotIrish]

Pleas, don't turn this into a philosofical debape. It has nothing to do whith that. And I only tried to explain myself. It seems that most doesn't read what I write. My first post I wrote that I know the looks doesn't matter but the sound does and someone threw that back into my face.

I appreciate your help regarding how the flute could look like and sound like. But not the things about what other think and so. I mean,some buys a car or phone that just has to work and others want to spent just a little more money to get the same thing plus the looks. Because they care about how it looks.

I want an Irish flute that is beautiful in my eyes without making it something far from an Irish flute. And I so happen to think that the black ones with half round silver rings are kind of boring. That doesn't mean I have a crisis of some kind over what someone called my whistle years ago. But I don't want a fellow Irish flute player telling me that I could have used the same or less money on something that's more in the traditional way.

As said I appreciate all your helpbuy please keep to the flute not the feelings or philosophy of it of the fluteplayer...me

I find your query absolutely pointless.... as we cannot possibly see through your eyes. So, open your eyes, take a look at what is out there and make your own damn assessment. This is just sh*t. And, I think you know that! You don't like blackwood and silver? Too boring? Come up with your own F----N combination!

Board, please......stop accommodating this nonsense.

[Rob Sharer]

Blackwood flute too boring? There's a solution....







Silly, yes, but so is selecting a flute based on appearance.


Rob

[MTGuru]

Board, please......stop accommodating this nonsense.

Man, Arbo, I wouldn't want to be a beginner around you.

What I'm having trouble accommodating is swearing at newbies. Unless you're channeling Seamus Tansey. And believe me, you ain't Seamus Tansey.

[NicoMoreno]

I laugh, MT. Seriously, quite an overreaction to swear for no good reason... however I do actually agree with the idea behind the swearing. Go. Look. Decide.

However, I will point out that this:

You rarely need keys if you're only playing Irish trad, in spite of earlier descriptions/definitions;

is a little overstated... maybe many flute players rarely need keys, however there is plenty or opportunity in irish traditional music for the use of keys. Beare Island, Eileen Curran, many of Ed Reavey's tunes, the very common habit of many musicians to play tunes in A, and so on. I use them regularly, and I know I'm not alone. "Necessity" is defined by the musician. I definitely need keys.

[beor uaine]

[ Insert bible passages here. - Mod ]

C'mon, guys... it makes life so much better for all.

[talasiga]

.....
Sorry, Talasiga, you are dealing with peasants here.
I think your poetry is lovely.

Ah, I see now -
serfing the internet .....

[jemtheflute]

.....
Sorry, Talasiga, you are dealing with peasants here.
I think your poetry is lovely.

Ah, I see now -
serfing the internet .....

Talasiga, that easily has to be your very best post ever. I didn't think you had it in you.

[Gordon]

However, I will point out that this:

You rarely need keys if you're only playing Irish trad, in spite of earlier descriptions/definitions;

is a little overstated... maybe many flute players rarely need keys, however there is plenty or opportunity in irish traditional music for the use of keys. Beare Island, Eileen Curran, many of Ed Reavey's tunes, the very common habit of many musicians to play tunes in A, and so on. I use them regularly, and I know I'm not alone. "Necessity" is defined by the musician. I definitely need keys.

Not my point at all. Keyed flutes were suggested as the definition of an Irish flute, rather than a keyless. I believe it was Jem who posted this, without much argument from others, other than how many keys, 8 or 6. This idea - often promoted on this forum - is at best untrue, and is certainly misleading for newbies. Keyed flutes were meant, originally, as orchestral flutes (and many here, Jem included, still play them as such), while old-time ITM players often sealed the holes and/or removed the keys (particularly, I'm sure, on flutes that didn't play properly with them on). Many old tunes, as I was taught them, are in settings meant to avoid incidentals. Sure, as more modern ITM players use keys, more modern ITM tunes will use them. Fiddle tunes can be played more easily, without changing key signature. They're there; why not use them? Why half-hole a G# if you don't have to? I'm not arguing the practicality of keys.

But if we really wanted to define what an "Irish flute" is - if this is necessary at all, and I don't personally believe that it is - it is the keyless flutes made specifically for Irish music (started in the '70s or thereabout?) that are really only useful for ITM or other folk music. Now, don't get me wrong; I love keyed flutes, and - if playing ITM on one, then, of course keyed flutes are Irish flutes. That's why I defined it as a conical wooden flute, and didn't add whether it was keyed or not. Keyless flutes are very limited, beyond ITM repetoire; no argument from my end on that. Of course, there's always the Boehm - by your definition, would we define a Boehm flute as an Irish flute, because some are used for ITM convincingly? Irish player, certainly, but the instrument?

Most of us, myself included, would rather not limit myself to some specific definition on what is or is not an "Irish flute." That said, it is also not limited to the players of keyed flutes.

[y-nought]

I think it is also important to note that a keyless flutes give you a perfect excuse to not play along when the fiddles launch into Tam Lin.

I expect at least THAT from my "Irish" flute.

[benhall.1]

I'd go along with all that of yours above, Gordon, but I would have a slightly different take on it: I don't think it's necessary to define the instrument as "Irish" at all. I mean, let's face it, it's not. The 8-keys etc that the Irish use were mostly English originally, and I wouldn't mind betting that the "keyless flutes made specifically for Irish music" you refer to originated somewhere else as well, like, say, the States. But I don't think any of that is relevant, in any case. The instrument is what it is. What you play on it may be Irish music. Or not. But I don't think it helps to call the instrument itself an "Irish flute", even though that seems to be what's routinely done nowadays.

[Edited just to say: is this the same point you were making, Gordon? Just put a different way round?]