Morrison's

[straycat82]

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. What you practice is what affects your playing. Once again, it's quality, not just quantity. If you are not listening then all of the practice in the world isn't going to make the difference because you've already missed it.

[StevieJ]

... Despite having received hours of individual and small group instruction specific to their instrument and Irish music, they were just not getting it. The difference is listening. It's not just "part" of the picture, it is a prerequisite to any instruction and something to be maintained throughout any instruction. It really is the best advice anyone can give, assuming it is properly heeded.

Or maybe, the difference is other people just never made any effort to improve through practice.

Very likely. But even countless hours of practice won't be of much use unless backed up by the requisite listening (or immersion, as fw put it in another thread). I somehow doubt whether the people straycat is referring to did the listening but didn't do the practice. I've met plenty of them...

Edit: cross-posted with straycat. Same conclusion.

[NicoMoreno]

Thirded. I've met many otherwise competent musicians who don't listen and don't sound good.

[highwood]

You must also listen when practicing - might seem obvious, but it is I think harder to listen to yourself while playing than to listen to others. A recording of your own playing can be quite revealing.

Practice is of course not just a matter of countless hours or counting hours.

[cboody]

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent.

Oh My! What a nice statement!

Add me to the list that believes too many folks don't really listen. I wonder some times if that skill can really be well learned. I once had a graduate class in romantic music where the most knowledgeable student was an English major who couldn't read music at all but listened more acutely than any of us music folks. I know you can improve those skills but I don't think you ever catch up with the folks who seem to have the skill built in.

And, add me to the list that says folks can learn tunes after a couple times through. I play with folks in Michigan who regularly pick up tunes quite completely after twice around, and one who automatically creates melodic bass lines after hearing a tune once. They don't play ITM but they've highly developed aural learning skills. I can sometimes do it with some tunes, but only when the gods are smiling.

[Clarinetcat]

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent.

Oh My! What a nice statement!

It may seem like a nice statement, but in truth has absolutely no validity whatsoever.

[Blaydo]

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent.

It may seem like a nice statement, but in truth has absolutely no validity whatsoever.

What straycat means is that lots of bad/wrong practice will not make perfect, the more bad practice you do the harder it will be to undo when you finally realise that what you're playing is not how it's supposed to sound.

Most people living and having grown up in Ireland (even if they have never played an instrument) know what the music is supposed to sound like because it's all around us. We've done the listening. If you're not in this position then all the more reason you need to listen a lot more.

If you think you can come up with your own interpretation of this music that'll take the World by storm, and catch every nuance by looking at dots and bypassing the listening stage, then you're seriously deluded.

Seriously Clarinetcat, if you don't listen to the music and you don't listen to the people here who've been trying to give you good advice, then you're heading down the wrong road. If I was you I'd leave my ego behind and turn back to the junction where I took the wrong turn. The further you walk down this wrong road, the further you'll have to walk back eventually.

[Clarinetcat]

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent.

It may seem like a nice statement, but in truth has absolutely no validity whatsoever.

What straycat means is that lots of bad/wrong practice will not make perfect, the more bad practice you do the harder it will be to undo when you finally realise that what you're playing is not how it's supposed to sound.

Most people living and having grown up in Ireland (even if they have never played an instrument) know what the music is supposed to sound like because it's all around us. We've done the listening. If you're not in this position then all the more reason you need to listen a lot more.

If you think you can come up with your own interpretation of this music that'll take the World by storm, and catch every nuance by looking at dots and bypassing the listening stage, then you're seriously deluded.

Seriously Clarinetcat, if you don't listen to the music and you don't listen to the people here who've been trying to give you good advice, then you're heading down the wrong road. If I was you I'd leave my ego behind and turn back to the junction where I took the wrong turn. The further you walk down this wrong road, the further you'll have to walk back eventually.

I was only reading what straycat wrote, I wasn't trying to decipher or interpret his statement. I completely agree that bad practice and habits are difficult to undo, but by no means are they permanent, and that's what was said.

I'm also not "seriously deluded" and have no intention to take the world by storm.

Seriously Blaydo, I've said multiple times in several posts that I am actively listening to the style of the music as part of my learning, and will continue to do so.

[NicoMoreno]

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent.

Oh My! What a nice statement!

It may seem like a nice statement, but in truth has absolutely no validity whatsoever.

It's a very common truism in the classical world. That's where I first heard it. Another one is "It takes three repetitions to memorize something, and ten to undo it."

[Blaydo]

I was only reading what straycat wrote, I wasn't trying to decipher or interpret his statement. I completely agree that bad practice and habits are difficult to undo, but by no means are they permanent, and that's what was said.

It's just an expression and he/she explained the meaning of it.

I'm also not "seriously deluded" and have no intention to take the world by storm.

That was in reference to the following, suggesting this could be achieved from sheet music and with limited experience of ITM:

What if I read the sheet music and create a version of Morrison's with new ornamentation that becomes well used over the next few decades, and "traditional" long after I'm gone?

Anyway, good luck with your progress and keep listening to the music and the more knowledgeable people here.

[straycat82]

I was only reading what straycat wrote, I wasn't trying to decipher or interpret his statement. I completely agree that bad practice and habits are difficult to undo, but by no means are they permanent, and that's what was said.

I'm also not "seriously deluded" and have no intention to take the world by storm.

Seriously Blaydo, I've said multiple times in several posts that I am actively listening to the style of the music as part of my learning, and will continue to do so.

Seriously? I gave plenty of context and meaning following the statement. It seems like you're just trying to find things to disagree with when you don't even take the time to understand the obviously stated meaning behind my post. My statement was obviously a figurative phrase (and a pretty well-known one) that overstates for emphasis. All I was saying is that practice does not make perfect because if you're not practicing good technique then you're not really getting "better", are you? Rather, you're digging yourself a hole that will take more effort to get out of than if you had practiced the right (and sometimes more difficult) way to begin with. Judging by your posts and stubbornness thus far, you've probably got a pretty good start on that hole already.

You seem like a nice enough person but you are quite foolish to think that the way you learned music in America is going to be applicable to music traditions across the world. You have an awful lot of pride in your perceived musical knowledge. In many ways most of your posts here are outright disrespectful and arrogant to assume you know more than you do about a long-lived tradition. I've been on that side of the fence myself and it was thanks to the patient advice of folks like Mr. Gumby and Nico that I am beginning to finally work towards getting out of my own hole. The very same folks you're stubbornly arguing with. If you're not humble enough to recognize what you don't know then you're not going to make it very far in understanding and performing Irish music.

[Clarinetcat]

Seriously? I gave plenty of context and meaning following the statement. It seems like you're just trying to find things to disagree with when you don't even take the time to understand the obviously stated meaning behind my post. My statement was obviously a figurative phrase (and a pretty well-known one) that overstates for emphasis.

Seriously, I had never heard the phrase before.

I apologize if my posts seem disrespectful and arrogant, that was certainly not my intent. I have simply been asking some hypothetical questions that apparently have been taken out of context.

A simple thread asking if a printed version of Morrison's was representative of the basic tune familiar to many of you deteriorated into a "don't use sheet music" thrashing.

I do appreciate the opinions and input from all, and will continue to work on extensive ear training as recommended.

Thank you - CCat

[MTGuru]

FWIW ... Let me say that I've had a few private exchanges now with Clarinetcat. And despite some of the on-board hoo-ha, I don't think he's in any real danger of wandering off on a path into the faux-ITM wilderness. In fact, he strikes me as a solid musician with a healthy sense of both intellectual curiosity and skepticism. In practice, as a rank beginner (what, a few weeks now) he's doing many things right. And I think that some of his more provocative statements here are just his way of poking the ITM beast to see how it reacts. Which is different from kicking and screaming and digging in to one's own private bunker. His journey reminds me a bit of my own, and as long as he stays open to questioning his own preconceptions he'll do fine if he chooses to continue. After all, for a trained musician this "unlearning" of what you thought you knew is part of the fascination of ITM.

[cboody]

Seriously, I had never heard the phrase before.

(Referring to "practice makes permanent")

I'm surprised you haven't. There are lots of scholarly studies about the effects of negative practice. Interestingly enough they come down on both sides of the argument.

I agree with MTGuru's comments. I suspect Clarinetcat has lots of musical chops and that his experience will lead him along a good path to ITM. Despite what many have said I don't think he ever espoused not listening, only that listening and notation could both be useful. I doubt many of us would disagree. As I tried to suggest in an earlier post notation for ANY kind of music is at best a rough guide and at some point only experience listening to the particular style or having a person more expert in the style guide you is the only way to progress further. ITM has no corner on this issue, the proponents just seem to "shout" louder