Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

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How did you learn most ITM tunes, mostly?

1. I need to read sheet music to play most tunes.
2
2%
2. By reading sheet music.
6
7%
3. By listening to midi and reading notation.
2
2%
4. By listening to recordings and reading notation.
44
51%
5. By listening to recordings, I don't need notation.
10
11%
6. By listening and writing down what I hear.
10
11%
7. By being taught by other musicians directly, using notation as well.
4
5%
8. By being taught by other musicians aurally only.
5
6%
9. By listening to live musicians.
4
5%
 
Total votes: 87

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Clarinetcat
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by Clarinetcat »

MTGuru wrote:I do think there are ways and degrees and settings to participate in the music which, though falling short of the full skill set, can still give a great deal of personal satisfaction to the participants. That probably describes many Chiffers, and they're all very welcome here.
Very nice statement. The music is indeed enjoyable on many levels. :D


MTGuru wrote:But just because you can ride a horse, that doesn't make you a cowboy.
What if I wear the boots and hat and want to immerse myself in the culture? Should I go to Texas? Mexico? Spain? :wink:
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hans
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by hans »

MTGuru wrote:Again Hans, it seems you're trying to skew things to the pejorative with loaded terms like "snobbery", "fake", and "wannabee" that are not in the original writing.
You know full well that I was reacting to the loaded term "proper musician" Ben used. That is a distorted POV, and hints of snobbery in this matter, IMO.
MTGuru wrote: I do think there are ways and degrees and settings to participate in the music which, though falling short of the full skill set, can still give a great deal of personal satisfaction to the participants. That probably describes many Chiffers, and they're all very welcome here.
That sounds elitist and condescending.
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by DrPhill »

MTGuru wrote:Or not. I'm less rosy than Ben than everyone has what it takes, particularly among less malleable adult learners. I do think there are ways and degrees and settings to participate in the music which, though falling short of the full skill set, can still give a great deal of personal satisfaction to the participants. That probably describes many Chiffers, and they're all very welcome here.
Well, you got me there MTGuru :D
MTGuru wrote:But just because you can ride a horse, that doesn't make you a cowboy.
Is that what I have to do to get out of beginner status? Well, I never would have guessed.... yeee - haaaa.
Phill

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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by hoopy mike »

Mr.Gumby wrote:I'd suggest [the poll] doesn't even accurately reflect the learning methods of the forum populaton (I, for example never entered a reply and I doubt I am the only one).
Everyone loves the silent majority and claims them for their own.
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by david_h »

hans wrote:
MTGuru wrote: I do think there are ways and degrees and settings to participate in the music which, though falling short of the full skill set, can still give a great deal of personal satisfaction to the participants. That probably describes many Chiffers, and they're all very welcome here.
That sounds elitist and condescending.
Not to me. It seems very fair. If Ben had said "proper traditional musician" I don't see much to argue about. If I am going to be a wannabe I like to know what I wannabe.

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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by benhall.1 »

MTGuru wrote:If at some point a person does not have the ability learn by ear, and at some later point they do have it, then at points along the way they simply don't yet have the full and necessary skill set. No need for pejoratives. We're all beginners at some time. With effort, desire, motivation and ability they'll succeed.

Or not. I'm less rosy than Ben that everyone has what it takes, particularly among less malleable adult learners. I do think there are ways and degrees and settings to participate in the music which, though falling short of the full skill set, can still give a great deal of personal satisfaction to the participants. That probably describes many Chiffers, and they're all very welcome here.

But that's not the same as calling yourself a traditional musician with everything - musical and cultural - that goes with that. Few here can make that claim without qualification, myself included. Again, there's nothing pejorative about the distinction, and there are degrees of approximation. But just because you can ride a horse, that doesn't make you a cowboy.
Lovely. I wish I could write like that. Maybe I do have the innate ability, and all it would take would be a little effort, eh? :lol:

I agree with every word of that, except that I remain a perpetual optimist about people's innate ability to hear music and play it. What person who plays an instrument can't pick it up straight away and play Happy Birthday? Or Twinkle Twinkle? From then on, everything else becomes just a matter of degree.
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by hans »

I just realised this whole topic is in the wrong forum :shock: .
Moderators, can you please move the whole thread to the Irish Traditional Music Forum? Thanks!
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by MTGuru »

benhall.1 wrote:What person who plays an instrument can't pick it up straight away and play Happy Birthday? Or Twinkle Twinkle?
Or Three Blind Mi ... I mean, Mice in the Bog. :P

http://www.box.net/shared/0vht8o0ain
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by fiddlerwill »

I disagree with Ben[not the first time eh Ben! :wink: ] I feel that developing the skill to play by ear is not essential, but I feel thats it is of such great benefit to the musicians involved that its a very important skill to develop *for your own musical advantage.* Its a skill that is incredibly rewarding and Is worth spending an awful lot of time on. Reading music although a handy skill and worth learning and is very rewarding, but not to the same degree as playing by ear.
The site linked earlier by David H looks very good and I can recomend it, go back and find the link if yer interested. :)

I dont think its essential because there is more to the music than session playing; Solo Pipers guitarist etc can attain a very high level of skill on their instrument mechanically and musically with out it. BUT IMO they would attain a higher level by attaining the flexibility and other skills attained by being able to play by ear.
Last edited by fiddlerwill on Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by straycat82 »

All this talk of snobbery and elitism is ridiculous. Has this place really become so politically correct and passive aggressive that we can't even be honest with ourselves about where we are in our musical journey? I absolutely agree with what Ben and MT are saying and I fall quite short of the "proper musician" category myself. It's a goal and a place I hope to arrive at some day but fooling myself into thinking I'm already there does nobody any good. F*%@sake.

The term "proper musician" is not loaded, it's honest. Just because you've allowed your perspective to become skewed to your favor doesn't mean that others who strive for and recognize a higher standard are snobs. You can be a perfectly nice person who is not that a great musician yet and we can all get along just fine if we're honest with ourselves and each other. The problem starts when people start demanding respect and recognition for their sub-par musical accomplishments (which is a category that, again, most of us chiffers fall into, myself included) and getting their forum identity and status wrapped up in it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Where does this sense of entitlement come from?!
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by hoopy mike »

MTGuru wrote:Or Three Blind Mi ... I mean, Mice in the Bog. :P

http://www.box.net/shared/0vht8o0ain
That's lovely. I was about to ask you for the dots, but now I'm wondering if that's the appropriate ITM etiquette, or whether instead I should ask when you'll be playing it at a session near me.
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by NicoMoreno »

Careful, Will. You're equating learning by ear to playing with others. No solo musicians become even just decent without having developed their ears to hear what they're doing themselves. Even when I was learning classical and jazz in high school with sheet music and the whole lot, it was stressed very very often that you have to listen. To those around you, yes, but also what you're doing yourself.

Music isn't visual, afterall. It's all about the ears.

(@Straycat... good stuff! That is very nicely said.)
Last edited by NicoMoreno on Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by hoopy mike »

NicoMoreno wrote:Careful, Will. You're equating learning by ear to playing with others. No solo musicians become even just decent without having developed their ears to hear what they're doing themselves.
Really? Not even:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Glennie
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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

All this talk of snobbery and elitism is ridiculous. Has this place really become so politically correct and passive aggressive that we can't even be honest with ourselves about where we are in our musical journey?
Don't delude yourself. It has always been like that here and if anything it was probably worse years ago. The Snobe is a classic C&F character. Going well back but receiving it's name from this. And wasn't he invoked much after that.

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Re: Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

Post by straycat82 »

I guess I am still pretty young to the boards. Not to be overly naive and young but it's a shame that so many are content conducting themselves in this manner.

The "snob" card is just another path of least resistance for people who aren't serious enough to go after the music but want to be included in the "club". If you rationalize that you can play Irish music any old way then it puts no standard up for you to fall short of. If you discard other people's posts as snobbery then you don't have to face the truth in them yourself.

If you reverse-snobs can find peace in your delusion then more power to you, it's just a shame that it has to always come to name-calling and disrespecting those who have the most potential to help.
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