Lilting Banshee Help

[Cathy Wilde]

Besides the fact that cuts on A's and B's are weird ergonomically, a cut that's not on the beat can get rhythmically awkward if you do it wrong. That's when you ask yourself if placement of certain cuts or rolls might emphasize the between-beat notes too much and throw off the rhythm of the tune. Billy is a good example of someone who took an alternate route to nice effect. Me, I do a sort of finger bounce with LH2 between the A's once in a while, but not all the time because then things seem to get too "cutty" and muck up the phrasing. Discretion is the better part of valor in that case, I think. Also, whistlers like Donncha O'Brien and Mary Bergin tongue notes on a fairly regular basis, even repeated notes in double jigs, but they do it in keeping with what's most important to the phrase, and they do it well, not all staccato and double-tonguey.

At the end of the day, there are lots of ways to go about it -- just make sure your ornaments support the music rather than call attention to themselves.

[MarkP]

...although Billy Clifford would be playing a Radcliffe (or wooden Boehm?) system flute, which would lend to different challenges from simple system anyway I guess

[jemtheflute]

I agree pretty much with everything else in Cathy's second post above, but I don't really buy this "L hand cuts/rolls are harder" stuff. OK, I accept that many people report that they find them so - I'm not arguing there isn't an issue for some, but from my personal playing experience I don't get why. I have never, even when I was first exploring this genre and its techniques, found the L hand ones on either whistle or flute more awkward than the R hand ones or the ones between two hands. Knowing I wanted to be able to do cuts, taps and rolls wherever, I set out to be able to do so, mostly in the context of tunes which demanded them - and I don't remember any major hurdles - nothing that a moderate amount of specific, in context practice couldn't overcome quite swiftly, and then that would be that - the specific ornament in question would be available in my "kit". If the way one holds the flute is making them more awkward, then that is a problem to address, but beyond that, if one's hold is secure and the fingers are not stressed inappropriately, one ought to be able to move them as necessary for cuts, taps and rolls just fine right through the scale.

In the clip I did my one shot at cutting the repeated As (with L2, not L1) in the A music may sound a bit less crisp/effective than I'd wish, but I plead the fact that I wouldn't normally use cuts there and was having to think about artificially putting them in to an unfamiliar context. I do quite often use the tap or the fast roll there and did those cleanly enough, I hope. I say "fast roll" because it is the full "long roll" set of notes but in the time of the two quaver As - it isn't what I understand a "short roll" to be - and I wouldn't use a short roll there.

[JohnB]

but I don't really buy this "L hand cuts/rolls are harder

Good for you - I do buy it, G and A rolls no problem but I find the a B roll really awkward

[MTGuru]

I have never, even when I was first exploring this genre and its techniques, found the L hand ones on either whistle or flute more awkward than the R hand ones or the ones between two hands.

Then you're probably blessed with less asymmetrical dexterity than some of us! I am quite lopsided, and I have far better fine motor control in my right hand than in my left, even for everyday tasks. I've been playing winds for umpteen years, and even now occasionally my left (but never right) hand will seize up and stop responding until I will it into submission. Shouting, "Move, damn you!" at my hand does seem to help.

Seriously, I agree that it's a matter of training away the asymmetry. Heavens, look at all the right-handed string players, myself included. But when I first tackled the left hand wind ornaments it was far harder for me than the experience you describe.

[Rob Sharer]

What an excellent opportunity to point out the advantages of the unconventional grip!

I find absolutely no difference between the LH and RH ornaments. Up the straight-fingered lads!


Rob

[loic]

I love this Mike Rafferty version : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Nw4Mr8bzA
Hope that helps...

[celticmodes]

I love this Mike Rafferty version : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Nw4Mr8bzA
Hope that helps...

Yes, this is great. Thanks.

[jemtheflute]

Then you're probably blessed with less asymmetrical dexterity than some of us!

There may be something in that - I am very definitely R handed, but I have always had an ability to do certain things either handedly. Not all. Not for example play wind instruments or write or throw a ball well or use a tennis racket etc. But when I used to be an archaeologist I never got the occupational "troweller's claw" because I was constantly changing hands with my trowel and sharing the workload - I could produce as good a smooth, markless finish on a soil surface with my L hand as my R, though for any fine-detailed fiddly work or for extra strength my R handedness would come to the fore. Ditto shovelling, (could throw further with R hand hold) raking, sweeping, using a mattock/pickaxe/axe (more accurate and stronger R handed but L handed v usable for muscle relief) etc.

With reference to Rob's post, for those who don't already know, I am a "conventional" Rockstro style holder of a flute - straight-fingered works for him - me, I'd drop the flute! But we're in agreement about the finger dexterity, and presumably living proof that either hold-type (done properly) allows for good L hand ornamentation.

[Kirk B]

Wow. Billy Clifford seems to be "ha-ha" or "ha-ha-ha"ing the double and triples a lot in there. And I agree the left cuts of A are not easy...that's why I brought this up. I was doing what I thought was correct and it seemed to sound....crappy. So I wondered if maybe in that case there was some other technique.

I'll still work on my A cuts and rolls but in the meantime I've got to get this thing up to speed sounding somewhat acceptable.

Remember he's playing either a Radcliffe or Boehm flute in that recording so his technique is going to be a bit different.

[Kirk B]

What an excellent opportunity to point out the advantages of the unconventional grip!

I find absolutely no difference between the LH and RH ornaments. Up the straight-fingered lads!


Rob

I've been practicing with your grip and you're right about the ornaments but playing C# I git askeert the flute's gonna fallout of my biscuit-hooks.

Kirk

[BrendanB]

I love this Mike Rafferty version : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Nw4Mr8bzA
Hope that helps...

And to bring the whole thread full circle, it looks like that's Mike and Colleen Gavin sitting behind Mike and Mary Rafferty. Good sign to go get lessons from Colleen.

B

[Cathy Wilde]

Up the flat-fingered grip, indeed! I switched to it and my left-hand rolls are much better. Not awesome, and I still can't do those amazing back-to-back A & B rolls some of the lads like McGoldrick serve up, but I can pass. At least they don't sound like classical turns anymore.

[Cathy Wilde]

And aha, right next to that was the clip of Colleen I was looking for yesterday before getting sidetracked by more **** piping clips!

http://www.youtube.com/v/P1zKN7qJtWQ?fs