Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

[david_h]

The other interesting poll result is the lack of use of midi. Now this is good, giving the mechanical quality of playback. It also means, I think, that midi files or playback on trad music resource sites like thesession.org or abcnotation.com could be scrapped and abandoned, for the general benefit of the music.

If no one is learning tunes from midi then isn't it safe to leave them there ? I read music badly enough that with a familiar tune I will often play what is in my head not what is on the page, especially if it is just a slight variation. I am deliberatley avoiding notation for traditional tunes because my visual memory is 'too good' for that to be safe. So occasionally letting a midi player run through a tune is a good way of screening it for variations. I am experienced enough as a listener to hear past the mechanical rhythm -as I suspect most people who like this music are.

[Mr.Gumby]

But I'd like to see more aural teaching "on the street" (or in the kitchen).

I think there isn't, and never has been, much of that. Not in the way I imagine you visualise it. Just playing the tune for somebody is 'teaching' it. That's what all the old musicians I ever learned tunes off did, that's how anyone who want any of my tunes expects it. You play it two, three times through and they'll pick it up.

[hans]

Unfortunately I have not seen anyone picking up tunes like that, except musicians in Bulgaria. They did not have tune books at all, and were able to pick up tunes from each other just as you describe. So I don't doubt it is possible, but you need to be well immersed in the tradition.

[Clarinetcat]

Just playing the tune for somebody is 'teaching' it. That's what all the old musicians I ever learned tunes off did, that's how anyone who want any of my tunes expects it. You play it two, three times through and they'll pick it up.

I must state that the above quote is about as far from teaching as you can get.

A teacher evaluates the skill level of their students, and then teaches in a manner appropriate to the learning style of the student, such as visual, auditory, tactile, etc. A teacher will also embrace and utilize several methods in instruction in order to successfully teach the information.

An ADVANCED musician might possibly be able to pick up a tune in 2-3 times through at a session by watching fingerings (visual), listening to the tune (auditory), and by fingering the tune on their own instrument along with the performance (tactile). However, most students will require significantly more time and material in order to learn a tune, or anything for that matter.

Students may need to supplement what is heard at the session by reading sheet music or notation, by listening to recordings, and by receiving printed or verbal instruction on the various methods required for fingerings, ornamentation, phrasing, articulation, etc.

I think the poll results so far show that "Just playing the tune" is certainly not enough to teach many students.

[david_h]

This is fiction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17Jd319fVI
Is it also fantasy ?

[fiddlerwill]

There is plenty of phrase by phrase teaching going on in workshops and the like, typically repeating each phrase a dozen times or more till everyone has it, then 2nd phrase, then both together etc. works well, Id say it is generally aimed at kids , but works for all ages. This is IMO the kind of preliminary training that is so useful in developing the ability to pick up tunes as they happen. Thats certainly how I learnt most of my early tunes. No ornaments obviously, just the bare bones. Personally I favour short phrases as the short term memory generally has significant limits, of about 7 'numbers' If Im teaching tunes its like this or just playing the tune slowly. Experienced adults obviously dont need this kind of thing as Dr Gumby points out.

Hans, I think your description of Bulgarian musicians hold true for many if not most trad musicians here in Ireland , its standard. Saying that Ive noticed that often in recent years people are scared to try this kind of thing at sessions for fear of 'upsetting' the music. I think this is a shame. I feel that its an important if not essential skill to develop and that if the session is more concerned with entertaining the public and themselves its a good idea to organise sessions where this is specifically encouraged otherwise where do newbies keen to develop this skill train?
The skill of listening and transferring to instrument what you hear, as it happens, is a specific skill that can be taught and developed through practice but I feel its a separate issue to how we learn tunes, though they can overlap considerably.
As regards Midi, well If Dave Hegarty waxes enthusiastically about Midi for accessing old books to folk with out reading ability, I for one, would accept that it has a place in this day and age and would not condemn it. If it works for you, go for it.

[Clarinetcat]

This is fiction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17Jd319fVI
Is it also fantasy ?

No david, it is not fantasy. It simply is not efficient teaching.

This particular scene from the movie The Boys and Girl from County Clare shows the father playing the tune over and over and over again. If you notice, the kids are struggling with wrong notes, incorrect rhythm, etc. This is nothing more than trial and error learning on the part of the students.

More effective auditory teaching would be (as fiddlerwill pointed out) playing only short phrases or sections of a tune in order to facilitate quicker learning and better retention. Even more effective would be if the father stopped playing and actually provided some instruction on what notes of the melody were being performed incorrectly, tapped the rhythm out on his leg, etc.

[Mr.Gumby]

Clarinetcat, you apparently have no experience whatsoever with the transmission of Irish Music. Which is fine but it also means you haven't seen oral transmission at work.. You may think getting children to play in the way I described is 'inefficient', in practice it's a well tested way of oral transmission that is used by traditional musicians in Ireland. It trains the ear and produces players well versed in the idiom, with an immediate insight in structures and phrases, in other words, it works very well. In my experience teaching young players they do not need more than a few run throughs to 'lift' a tune and that's what we're talking about here: teaching a tune. They will usually need to practice their instrumental skills though and you'd give them run through the more complex bits of ornamentation at some point. But as a reply to Hans' query, and him wondering about 'kitchen teaching' teaching/learning a tune usually just going through it a few times suffices.

[NicoMoreno]

Like I said, you seem to have a weird take on things.

Tell me why it's "weird" to learn tunes at sessions if what you want to do is play tunes in sessions. Explain please, 'cos it's beyond me. Or was it just a pointless attempt at a put-down?

Not at all a put-down. I wasn't saying learning tunes at sessions is weird, far from it. I was questioning your "put-down" of learning from CDs and your reasons for preferring sessions as weird. I think you should reexamine your prejudice towards sessions, because it seems to me that your reasons for learning from session players apply equally to learning from recordings (not just commercial) and one-to-one. It is weird to me that you view sessions as inherently superior, for the reasons I said above, and more besides.

[Mr.Gumby]

Let me give a little example, in Friel's the other week as I was talking to Brid O Donohue the subject of Peadar O Riada's tunes came up. She said she had the CD but hadn't actually tried playing any of it but in her typical way she said she'd 'know them to hear'. I played three of POR's reels and Brid played them as I went along, not a bother. Now, did she learn them in session or from CD?

it's not all black and white is it?

[Clarinetcat]

Clarinetcat, you apparently have no experience whatsoever with the transmission of Irish Music. Which is fine but it also means you haven't seen oral transmission at work.. You may think getting children to play in the way I described is 'inefficient', in practice it's a well tested way of oral transmission that is used by traditional musicians in Ireland. It trains the ear and produces players well versed in the idiom, with an immediate insight in structures and phrases, in other words, it works very well. In my experience teaching young players they do not need more than a few run throughs to 'lift' a tune and that's what we're talking about here: teaching a tune. They will usually need to practice their instrumental skills though and you'd give them run through the more complex bits of ornamentation at some point.

Absolutely correct, I do not have experience in the transmission of Irish Music. However, I do have extensive experience teaching a wide variety of musical styles and instruments.

I still hold the view that teaching anyone (children or adults) a tune simply through oral transmission is inefficient for some students.

What would you do if it took a student more than a few run throughs to lift a tune?

[straycat82]

Despite clarinetcat's ability to quote pedagogy direct from the textbook, it seems as if the point is being missed entirely. In many situations it is appropriate to teach a student by any means that will engage them and lead them through comprehension (i.e., different intelligences, learning styles, brain-based strategies, etc). However, when it comes to music the devices you use to teach can end up strengthening or crippling the musician as it relates to folk music. For example if you choose to use sheet music to teach someone because they are a visual learner, you might have made it easier for them to make some progress, but you have failed to teach them a skill that is much more important within the context of the tradition; listening. Making learning easier does not always make it better quality. You should teach them the same as you'd teach anyone else in an aural tradition--aurally. If they struggle at first with this method then you keep at it and through practice they strengthen their learning style that is weaker but more useful in the context of aurally transmitted folk music. This is not to say that technique and other things cannot be discussed and passed on by the teacher, but you need to realize that learning to hear what is being musically presented to you, and learning to reproduce it is a much more valuable skill to the ITM student than receiving the sheet music. Nothing wrong with producing a few bad notes here and there, it's part of the process and they'll be stronger musicians for it as opposed to playing each note "right" from the sheet music. There's much more to the music than just hitting the "right" notes and it can only be found by repeated listening.

[cross-post with clarinetcat]

[Mr.Gumby]

I think straycat pretty much has it. If they don't get it, you keep at it and force them to develop the skills required to pick up a tune quickly. It works, really.

Mind you once they have the tune going, you give them the opportunity t orecord the tune and maybe provide a notation (ABC, the old written form, not the computer one, is the usual) for them to take home in case they loose bits of the tune. But the initial teaching/learning is as described. And outside an actual formal teaching situation (giving someone a tune in the kitchen, as Hans mentioned) the notation bit would not be included ofcourse.

[crookedtune]

What would you do if it took a student more than a few run throughs to lift a tune?

I'd let him go home, take his time, think about it, hear it some more, maybe dream on it, and stash it away for later. It might pop back out months or years later, and then he'll really own it.

Learning folk music is a gradual process in which time and subconscious thought processes are important ingredients. In this way it bears very little resemblance to training for orchestral performance.

[david_h]

And outside an actual formal teaching situation... ...the notation bit would not be included ofcourse.

What, no beer mats ?