Poll: How do you learn Irish traditional tunes?

[fearfaoin]

But what do you do most to learn tunes?

But that's the problem, they're fairly equal.
Sometimes I'll use many of them on the same
tune. I'll hear a new tune at session and play
along roughly. By the time I get home I'll have
forgotten it, so I look up the dots. Once I've
gotten the bones again I look up recordings
and emulate some different players to see
what I like. Sometimes I find an interesting
version and say "Wow, the Donegal version
is F'd up, I gotta write that down!"

I guess with the band recently it's shifted
more toward passing out stuff on sheet at
practice and demonstrating the tune a few
times, then we all play along.

I guess, then, that 4 and 7 are the closest,
pour moi.

[fiddlerwill]

But ben, the standard setting is merely the ground upon which we, as artists, develop . So for example the settings I picked up recently from Brendan Mulkere are very, very different from session settings, and far, far more interesting and preferable to me, yes they would not be session suitable, but thats good IMO. There is a school of thought that deplores most sessions as 'eurotrad' the lowest common denominator .
For me its all about the tune and developing the tunes in ways that are refreshing and original. Yes they are not then suitable for sessions... and? The standard to aspire to is one where our own personality and imagination fires the tunes.
Session playing for me is fun , but far from the centre of activity. I dont play trad to play in sessions I play trad because I love the tunes and the music, because its a part, a central part, of who I am. . For example its not possible to play the tunes on guitar in sessions. cant be heard, waste of time, so as a solo ' classical' guitarist sessions are a complete irrelevance to my music . As a Reel Piper I dont play in sessions because Im too loud, opposite problem! so sessions are again a complete irrelevance. As a sean-nos singer sessions are a not relevant .
As far as learning from books, well they ARE the standard settings generally, give or take the odd note , if you want to play 'euro-trad' sessions then the standard text books are one of the best places to learn tunes.
If you regularly play music with a set group, eg a local session, then yes you would be best advised to play settings from that group. Same as in any band, either learn from the group or from the same source.

As far as 'wacky' settings, perhaps thats because the players have moved far beyond the standard session settings, have little interest in those settings. Not so as to sell CD's!! Perhaps they are more interested in getting to the core of the music; the individuals artistic instinct and capabilities. Besides there are plenty of 'young buck' sessions that only play weird and wonderful tunes and settings learnt from The latest Lunnessa [insert latest trendy trad band name here]CD. etc
Its simple, we dont all share the same motivations and viva la difference. For someone whos 'centre' is sessions my position clearly seems ' wacky' But for me the solo playing of Bobby Casey, Paddy Canney, David Power , Seamus Ennis etc is the mainstream and sessions merely a small and relatively insignificant tributary.
I recognise that the music has spread far and wide and is greatly transformed through this process and that in the eyes of this 'new wave ' The majority perhaps of folk who play trad, the session is the centre and that what I see as the mainstream could be viewed as a quaint anachronism but thtas not how I see it from my little bit of Loch Derg.

[benhall.1]

Yes, the solo tradition is probably where it's at. I was lucky enough to meet Bobby Casey on a few occasions, and he was great. Lovely man. Fine player. Fine session player too. But sessions are what turn me on, in this music. I love the interaction, I love the shared knowledge of and enjoyment in the individual tunes, I love the tiny little musical jokes and banter that happen when two decent players bounce subtly different ideas off each other. It makes me laugh.

I suppose the reason I was surprised that more people don't just learn their stuff from sessions, is because it just seems such a natural way to do it, for me. And it does cut out all the middle process of learning the tune from dots (or CDs), listening to different versions of it on the net etc, playing it in sessions and realising you've got it wrong, going back and practising it, taking it back to the session, fine-tuning it again. I mean, that takes forever! Most of the time, I just can't be *rsed.

Mind you, I do pick up tunes other ways as well. All the other ways take me longer, but I just can't help myself.

[Oh, and don't anyone suggest taking my tunebook collection off me. Grrr! ]

[NicoMoreno]

But... what if the session version is just boring? That happens a lot. What if you go to a different session where they have a different version? How is that any less work than learning from a recording?

How are sessions so much better than playing with one or two people in a kitchen or living room (which is what I do 90% of the time, at least in the last couple of years, it seems)? This isn't what I would call a session, especially if it's just one other person. The dynamics are only subtly different from this and a lesson, especially if one of the people takes the time to play things through until you have the tune.

If all you do at a session is learn from everyone else, then how do new tunes show up in the session?

I think you have a weird view of things, Ben.

[crookedtune]

New tunes show up because the attendee group isn't static, and because everyone learns tunes outside the session, and brings them in.

I learn tunes from sessions, recordings and sheet music, generally in combination. Midis give me nightmares.

[flynnieous]

I'm slightly stunned by the responses. 38% so far get their tunes from recordings and from sheet music. ... <snip> ... CD versions are often deliberately slightly 'wacky' versions....

I was assuming that what hans meant by 'recordings' was as wide as what he meant by 'notation'. CDs, recordings of sessions, CCE recordings, Folktrax recordings etc. Surely any one version is just a starting point. Sessions don't all play the same version do they ?

I probably am not going to pick up a tune on the fly at the speed they play at most sessions. I'm just not that good. But I will RECORD the tune at the session on my trusty mp3 player, and then figure it out in the comfort of my home, possibly with the help of some dots. Then, in a session or two, I should be able to join in.

So, recordings and notation for me.

[benhall.1]

I think you have a weird view of things, Ben.

Er ... OK. Seems normal to me. But, like a lot of people I know, I don't just go to one regular session. And kitchen "sessions", even if it is just a few tunes with one other person, seem like sessions to me.

I think the question of going to a different session where the version being played is different (on that particular occasion - on another night, it might be different even in that 'other' session, even with the same people) is easy. You pick it up at a session, and you will find that you can adapt it. After all, if they're all playing it exactly the same every single time, it would not only be pretty dull, but also highly unusual. Individuals will play slightly different takes, and will also change them on each run through. Whereas, if you learn it off a CD, every time you play that CD it will always be the same, one line, never changing. How can you learn to adapt? Why, by playing it at a session, of course. So, why not do that in the first place and cut out all the hassle?

I can't see why this is weird. It's just easy, that's all.

[Clarinetcat]

You pick it up at a session, and you will find that you can adapt it. After all, if they're all playing it exactly the same every single time, it would not only be pretty dull, but also highly unusual. Individuals will play slightly different takes, and will also change them on each run through. Whereas, if you learn it off a CD, every time you play that CD it will always be the same, one line, never changing. How can you learn to adapt? Why, by playing it at a session, of course. So, why not do that in the first place and cut out all the hassle?

Ben, I'm still wondering why you feel learning something at a session is more "reliable" than learning it from a CD or sheet music.

If you have to adapt and change what you already learned every time you go to a session because it is always different anyways, I don't see how it matters how, when, or where you learn it.

[NicoMoreno]

Whereas, if you learn it off a CD, every time you play that CD it will always be the same, one line, never changing.

You poor man, you must never have gotten good cds. The CDs I listen to change every time I put them on.

And even on one play, a good musician, as you allude to, will change it up every time, so if you learn how they play the tune each of the three times through (or more), then voila, you've learned to adapt to three different versions.

And of course, I'm not talking about just commercial recordings (nor are most people) when they say "recordings". So when you have one musician playing a tune a bunch of times, then you have lots of takes to learn from. And of course many musicians have recorded the same tunes, so again, lots of versions to learn from. Also, many session musicians don't do very much with the tunes, almost undoubtedly because they only learn at sessions, so if you hear them playing the tune, and they play it the same way every time, how is that better than a recording? So I don't think there's nearly as much difference as you think.

Like I said, you seem to have a weird take on things.

[fiddlerwill]

>>But sessions are what turn me on, in this music. I love the interaction, I love the shared knowledge of and enjoyment in the individual tunes, I love the tiny little musical jokes and banter that happen when two decent players bounce subtly different ideas off each other. It makes me laugh.<<

Nice one Ben, I love that too, but the big mass sessions can be detrimental in a sense too, nobody really listens to each others , everyone head down churning out tune after tune blah blah! not always of course but it does happen, too much!
I personally consider a session to be 2 or more gathered together but learning tunes in a bigger environment? ! For me it simply doesnt happen much , I can pick them up, play them and if this is done regularly then they do get fixed melodically in my mind but sessions round here simply dont repeat tunes much. and I dont go that often....
I really enjoyed playing with you the other night Ben, it was a great craic, but Its such a different thing to my normal tune playing. I normally play quietly and Im playing the tunes with subtle phrasing[ ~I like to think] while in sessions I often find myself occupying a middle ground between tune and accompaniment which is all good I hasten to add, but very different to how I play alone.
Its not that one is better than the other, they are just different aspects of the wider tradition and I feel that the tradition is broad enough to encompass us all!

For me, in group playing the essential things are listening and finding an acoustic space to occupy that doesnt infringe on others , that allows full expression and that facilitates a group consciousness. Every one just banging through tunes, not listening, mushing up sounds in a morass of partially in tune, cacophony, well its just not my cup of tae, put it that way!
I love duets where I can find the space I need to play with phrasing, rhythmic subtitles and accents, melodic variation that is facilitated by enquiring minds aware of every little thing happening, like you say, where we can make each other laugh and there is air to breath. sessions like this, yes, these I enjoy . But IMO these can thrive on 'weird settings' where the tunes form is not so narrowly defined, where we give each other the space to be ourselves, express ourself, to be free to explore and adventure through twists and turns of the tunes we may never have encountered before, and may never again, music, like life is ephemeral, transient and impermanent.

To achieve this kind of thing, in groups of more than 2 or 3 is IME a rare thing. The ability to do this does not come from any particular musical tradition, but from the ability to multi task, to listen, and react while also creating, Its a bit like wrestling in a way. It requires flexibility fluidity and also strength and drive . These are very different requirements to being able to play a tune. A tune is a tune, whatever genre, being able to play solo is a different thing to being able to play in consort. The flexibility we describe Ben is not a product of a learning method, books or cds or whatever, its a product of awareness and sensitivity, flexibility and experience, and more than that;Will, the desire to really play music, not just go through the motions.

[cboody]

I guess I'll have to join some others. I can't really pick any of the items with the confidence that I'm being honest. I can say that I don't need sheetmusic to play from, and that I think midi files are a terrible way to learn any kind of music that has any kind of nuance in it. I avoid both of those. And, I haven't had a teacher for years, but if I did I'd want one that worked by ear and with notation. The poll is a great idea, and I hope folks will respond. I respect the attempt to get a handle on a really interesting issue. I've struggled to come up with my response but I just can't. I think MTGuru and straycat82 reflected my approach pretty well, but "I've gone about as far as I can go..." OOOPS wrong tradition....

[R Small]

I use recordings and sheet music. But every tune I learn from the dots I also have recordings of so when I read a tune down from the music I already have the sound in my head. It all starts with listening.

[benhall.1]

Like I said, you seem to have a weird take on things.

Tell me why it's "weird" to learn tunes at sessions if what you want to do is play tunes in sessions. Explain please, 'cos it's beyond me. Or was it just a pointless attempt at a put-down?

[hans]

I hope we don't need to get into any form of Personal Attack. PAs are so unnecessary and spoil the gathering. - All the answers have been fascinating, thank you everyone! There are so many different approaches. The poll result is very interesting as well, even if a few could not find an option fitting them.

What seems clear is that a lot of folk here hear a tune played, and work on learning it by using notation, bearing in mind what they could hear, or listen to from a recording. What the poll does not reveal is the sources for the notation (apart for those writing it down themselves, and I admire your skill in this!).

When I search via google for a tune name, often http://thesession.org comes up pretty much top, whereas http://abcnotation.com perhaps on page 2. This means that thesession.org is a primary source when people look up tunes on the web, and this trend re-enforces itself, because it comes up top in the search. But the tune shown very often has transcription errors, or is a lousy version. That may be pointed out in the comments, and better versions given there. But how many will read through the comments, and paste other abcs into their editor to see and compare scores, and then work through the variations?

It seems to me better to look up a number of versions, when working with scores. The search at abcnotation.com does exactly that, but googling a tune name and looking up the abcnotation.com result shows only one version. So this is not ideal. I'd like a result showing a number of notation versions underneath each other.

The other interesting poll result is the lack of use of midi. Now this is good, giving the mechanical quality of playback. It also means, I think, that midi files or playback on trad music resource sites like thesession.org or abcnotation.com could be scrapped and abandoned, for the general benefit of the music.

One other interesting result is the rarity of personal being taught a tune. I know it does happen in workshops, and some teachers take great pain teaching aurally only. But I'd like to see more aural teaching "on the street" (or in the kitchen). The problem is it takes a lot of time, and we are all rushed to do so many other things. It probably is a victim of culture trends, i.e. TV.

[Hotblack]

Just to add my two penn'orth to the discusion I too voted 4.

I've only been learning for about a year but I generally hear tunes at my local sessions and then use a combination of Spotify to source different recordings of the same tune, and the session or abcnotation to source some dots as a basic reference. I use my own TAB to get my fingers in place and then practice, practice, practice. I then play along at the local sessions, adapting as I go.
I'm not advanced or skilled enough to pick up tunes on the fly yet.
I also have a couple of tune books with cds which I use, alongside Spotify, to get different nuances of tunes.