Keys - how to tell?

Aodhan · Post by **Aodhan** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:04 pm

OK, I can identify the basic keys (D, G), but how do you know what key a piece of music is in?

I know it has to do with the sharps and flats, but it's been long enough since my piano lessons I've forgotten how to tell...

Aodhan

Soineanta · Post by **Soineanta** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:44 pm

Here it is...hey, I got SOMETHING from suffering through piano for 7 years...

NO sharps or flats: Key of C maj/A minor
1 sharp: G maj/E min
2 sharps: D maj/B min
3 sharps: A maj/F# min
4 sharps: E maj/C# min
5 sharps: B maj/G# min
6 sharps: F# maj/D# min
7 sharps: C# maj/A# min

1 flat: F maj/D min
2 flats: Bb maj/G min
3 flats: Eb maj/C min
4 flats: Ab maj/F min
5 flats: Db maj/Bb min
6 flats: Gb maj/Eb min
7 flats: Cb maj/Ab min
(Relative minor is always located 2 half steps [1 whole step] down from the major.)

If you don't wanna memorize all that--I know I didn't, heh--there's another way. All ya have to know are the acronyms for the sharps and flats and how to find it from there. The acronyms spell out how sharps and flats are always listed, in order, in the key signature.

FCGDAEB - sharps - "Fat Cats Go Down Alleys Eating Balogna"
BEADGCF - flats - just the sharps reversed, "Bead Greatest Common Factor" is how I remember it.
To find the major key from key signatures with SHARPS in it: Go forward one letter ALPHABETICALLY (not in the acronym) from the last (farthest to right) sharp and that's the name of the key. (Ex: If the last sharp listed is F, the key is G. The G is not sharped; only key sigs with 6 or 7 sharps make the key sharp. [F#, C#.])
To find the major key from key sigs with FLATS in it: The second to last flat listed is the name of the key. (Ex: If the flats are B, E, and A, the key is Eb. The only key NOT flatted with flat key sigs is F.)

Hope that helped! I'm sure there are oodles of websites, if not.

Tom Dowling · Post by **Tom Dowling** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:59 pm

Posts like Soineanta's reply (a few posts 'up' in this thread) are what keep me coming back to the C & F Message Board. That is a lot of useful information all in one place. It reminded me that this music theory stuff can be approached by mere mortals.

Thanks for the useful information, which is now a Word document. I can go back and try to figure it out later.

Tom D.
(PS: Is this where I'm supposed to say how much I like my favorite whistle?)

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:57 am

(Relative minor is always located 2 half steps [1 whole step] down from the major.)

3 half steps, surely.

Excellent summary though!

Jens

[ This Message was edited by: Jens_Hoppe on 2003-02-12 09:33 ]

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:09 am

Here's a little rule of thumb for whistles :

Second major key (starting xxx ooo, using cross-fingered "C") is one flat down from 1st major.

- D key (##) minus one flat gives #, i.e. G
- F (bb) minus one flat gives one flat, i.e. Bb.

Soineanta · Post by **Soineanta** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:35 pm

It reminded me that this music theory stuff can be approached by mere mortals.
Thanks for the useful information..

It most certainly can, if *I* can get the hang of it.

You're very welcome!

3 half steps, surely.

Doh! You're right.. 3 half, one and a half whole steps. Oh well, A for effort, right?

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:38 pm

On 2003-02-12 15:35, Soineanta wrote:

3 half steps, surely.
Doh! You're right.. 3 half, one and a half whole steps. Oh well, A for effort, right?

Hey, it was a great post! I learned a lot from it!

Soineanta · Post by **Soineanta** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:42 pm

I'd like to thank my dog, my cats, my cats' offspring, my comfortable fake Birkenstock sandals...
Just kidding.

Actually, thanks should go out to my old piano teacher and current music teacher at school. Goodness knows I don't particularly like either of them, but they taught me alot.
Thanks for all the kind words, it brightened my congested and feverish (I have a cold) day!

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:50 pm

Well, this is fine for tunes based on the traditional major and minor keys, but as you'll probably find, the majority of Irish tunes are in one of the following modes:

Major
Mixolydian
Dorian

So the scale info on sharps and flats may be misleading.

For example, if you look at a sheet music version of "Cooley's Reel", it will appear to be in D, with two sharps, but it actually in E Dorian mode. Note, that its also not in B-minor which would also have two sharps, being the relative minor of D.

So there are lots of combinations that don't necessarily make sense if you're already familiar with western major and minor keys:

Here's a guide to the most common keys and modes:

D Major - 2 sharps
D E F# G A B C# D

D Dorian - No sharps
D E F G A B C D

D Mixolydian - 1 sharp
D E F# G A B C D

G Major - 1 sharp
G A B C D E F# G

G Mixolydian - No sharps
G A B C D E F G

A Major - 3 sharps
A B C# D E F# G# A

A Dorian - 1 Sharp
A B C D E F# G A

A Mixolydian - 2 sharps
A B C# D E F# G A

E Dorian - 2 sharps
E F# G A B C# D E

Here's my decision process for hearing modes:

1) Establish the root tone, i.e. is the tune sitting on a D, G, A, E, or B drone

2) Does it sound bright and happy or dark and sad..

- If bright and happy, its probably major or mixolydian mode

- If dark, its almost always dorian mode

If choosing between major and mixolydian, you need to determine if the 7th tone of the scale is normal or flattened, i.e. in a D tune, is there a C or C-sharp being used. If its a flattened 7th tone, its generally mixolydian, other wise its generally major.

Of course many tunes change key or mode between A and B parts, or even within a part so you have to be very specific when talking about what keys tunes are in...

Cheers,

Michael

[ This Message was edited by: eskin on 2003-02-12 15:51 ]

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:57 pm

Here's a good site with info on keys and modes, directed to whistle players:

http://www.geocities.com/novairishsessi ... modes.html

Cheers,

Michael
http://www.michaeleskin.com

WyoBadger · Post by **WyoBadger** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:46 pm

Good stuff. Here's a slightly different take on modes.

Whistles play major scales. Think of a major scale as 7 degrees. Playing up a scale goes 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1'. On a D whistle, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D'. On a G is would be G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G'. Etc.

Easy stuff.

Now, the Dorian (what most people call the minor) mode is based on scale degree six. Mixolydian (my favorite mode--I LOVE the sound of mixo tunes!) (yes, I have a favorite mode--does that make me a nerd?) is based on scale degree five.

So basically a D whistle can play in D Major, B minor (scale degree six), or A mixolydian (S. D. five). You can get other keys and modes by half-holing/cross-fingering, but let's not get TOO complicated.

If a tune has two sharps (key of D Major) but the "tonic" note, the one where it feels at home, seems to be A (scale degree five), than it's in Mixolydian mode and you'll hear that cool lowered 7th. If the tonic note is a B (degree six), than you know it's in a minor key and you're generally in for something sad and/or intense sounding.

Now. *pausing for breath* what was the question?

One interesting thing I've noticed, especially about Scottish music, is that with many tunes it's impossible to tell major of minor because the third scale degree (the one which determines "minorness") is missing entirely from the tune.

More fun with modes and scottish tunes: Highland pipes are actually tuned to a Bb (more or less) mixolydian scale, just as whistles are tuned to a major scale. It's often said that you want a Bb whistle to play along with highland pipes. But this will require a half-hole. Instead get an Eb whistle and play in Mixolydian mode, starting on scale degree five.

By the way, here is my favorite key signature mnemonic for flats: Bulgarian Eskimos Always Dig Good Corn Flakes.

Tom
edited because my grammar is doubleplusungood.

[ This Message was edited by: WyoBadger on 2003-02-14 17:47 ]

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:54 pm

Close, but no cigar...

Dorian is based on scale degree 2, i.e., E dorian sits on a D scale:

E F# G A B C# D E

I think of dorian as the major key minus two sharps... for example e major has 4 sharps, e dorian has two.

The aeolian mode, or natural minor scale sits on 6... I think of aeolian as the major scale minus three sharps... for example b major has 5 sharps, b aeolian has two, so it sits on the d-major scale.

WyoBadger · Post by **WyoBadger** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 7:35 pm

Darnit, you're right! I hearby resign my nerdship.
TW

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:20 am

Your sitting in session, and the fingers are flying. Tones are singing, hmmm.... what key?

My most helpfull hint from a fellow player was to look to the last note of the b part. If it ends on G, its probably g major key signature, one sharp (cross finger C natural). If it ends on D its probably d major key signature, two sharps(Open fingering C#). If it ends on E its probably e-minor or e-dorian depending on wether the C# or Cnat fits the tune. This doesn't work everytime, but it helps to narrow the field.

So you can join in and ...

_________________

Enjoy Your Music, Lee Marsh 
From Harper's Mill, MD.

[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2003-02-17 02:21 ]

Feadan · Post by **Feadan** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:51 am

On 2003-02-12 04:09, Zubivka wrote:
Here's a little rule of thumb for whistles :

Second major key (starting xxx ooo, using cross-fingered "C") is one flat down from 1st major.

- D key (##) minus one flat gives #, i.e. G
- F (bb) minus one flat gives one flat, i.e. Bb.

But the key of F has only one flat not two. Hmmm...your formula seems to make it more complicated than necessary. As long as you know what note is sounded with xxx ooo you know what the second major key is.

-David