Moving right along

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:28 pm

Sence I don`t watch soap oprahs and have no interest in them what so ever I thought I would ask a whistle question.
When I first started teaching myself to play guitar many years ago (ok 40 years ago) my first real break through came when I finaly understood that the key that a song was being played in contained a certain number of standard cords. If I could find out what key a tune was being played in I could figure out how to play it.
Now with the whistle I haven`t found the magic key. If I want to try and play along with a CD or tape even if I know what key the song is in there doesn`t seem to be that progression of notes that one could expect in that key.
My question is; is there??

Tom

spittin_in_the_wind · Post by **spittin_in_the_wind** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:42 pm

Are you talking about Irish music, or other musical forms? I've found that other forms tend to drift between keys a lot, and so the whistle wouldn't be a great instrument for playing along with those tunes. I mean, like jazz, pop, classical (except mozart, handel or something that tends to stick to a key).

Thanks for posting a whistle thread. I think we need a whole page full.

Robin

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:48 pm

Yeah, there are.

These old tunes are made out of a certain number of "building block" melodic sequences.

I think the best thing in the world to learn to recognise these, and to learn them, is to get a <i>large</i> book of tunes, something like O'Niell's 1800, and sightread, sightread, sightread.

I think learning the way these old tunes fit together is also the key to learning and playing tunes in real time, such as in a session. That is something I'm still working on, but I'm better at it than I once was.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Ridseard · Post by **Ridseard** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:01 pm

Irish trad tunes often use modes different from ordinary major and minor keys, and this can result in unfamiliar note progressions. For more info, read http://www.geocities.com/novairishsessi ... modes.html

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:27 pm

Boy, I'll have to delve back in time {only 25 years in my case

} to music theory...

I'm pretty sure the principle is the same for guitar and whistle on this issue, but you have to think "smaller" than the guitar chord. The chords are made up up individual notes, and those notes hold true for Irish music, too. So, if the tune is in G, think what chords for guitar come to mind, and then think what notes make up those chords and you'd have notes if you wanted to "improvise" a solo based on the tune.

There also really are similar progressions in many tunes. I find that the more tunes I memorize the easier it becomes and I am now starting to anticipate the upcoming notes even when I'm learning a tune. I don't know if you recall, but I've played Irish music for about a decade now (off and on, but more off than on), but only recently have I started to memorize tunes instead of using sheet music whenever I played. For me at least, memorization has made all the difference.

Does any of the above make sense?

Eric

HDSarah · Post by **HDSarah** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:27 pm

On 2003-02-11 16:28, Blackbeer wrote:

When I first started teaching myself to play guitar many years ago (ok 40 years ago) my first real break through came when I finaly understood that the key that a song was being played in contained a certain number of standard cords. If I could find out what key a tune was being played in I could figure out how to play it.
Now with the whistle I haven`t found the magic key. If I want to try and play along with a CD or tape even if I know what key the song is in there doesn`t seem to be that progression of notes that one could expect in that key.
My question is; is there??

Tom

Hmmm . . . this is probably the blind leading the blind here, because I'm definitely still a beginner at this stuff myself. However, I'm a very cerebral beginner so I've read up on lots of THEORY even if I have yet to learn how to apply it well.

You know how to identify the key, given your guitar experience. (I'm still working on that, myself.) If it's Irish music you're trying to learn, part of the problem may be that it isn't in a key you're familiar with, because it may well be "modal." If you've played songs on guitar, you're familiar with major (also called Ionian mode) and minor (a.k.a. Aeolian mode, and probably spelled wrong). Irish music also frequently uses Mixolydian and Dorian modes.

Here are the modes on an ordinary D whistle:

Ionian (major): play a scale from D to D on the whistle.
Mixolydian (has a flatted 7th tone): Play a scale starting and ending on A, using the ordinary notes of your D whistle (i.e., no crossfingering or half-holing)
Dorian (flatted 7th & 3rd): Play a scale starting and ending on E.
Aeolian (minor, flatted 7th, 3rd, and 6th): Play a scale starting and ending on B.

So, if you find that "there doesn`t seem to be that progression of notes that one could expect in that key" the tune might be in Dorian or Mixolydian mode.

I hope this helps.

Sarah

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:04 pm

Tom,

I had the same weird impression when I started whistling. See, I was farther retarted then you were, because I had never learnt any other instrument, or music generally. Beside, my ear was atuned to harmonic ("classic") music and its tonal nature, and this was more a source of misunderstanding than anything.

With most trad' musics, it seems the tone is relatively unimportant, unless you play with others of course. But the mode (=the intervals in the scale) is.
My ear is still not trained enough so I can say at once "huh, this is Mixolydian, not harmonic major".
Now, what I do when trying to replay a tune by ear is not just trying to sound one correct tone to guess a key.
Basically, it comes to trying to play a couple of measures of the tune starting with six holes closed, and basic fingering; if a tone "screeches" at some point, then I try again, this time with one finger off; no go? start with only two or one fingers down....
Of course, finding if the C should be played ooo ooo, or oxx ooo, finally tells me what mode I'm probably in : it's the only difference between a mixolydian and modern major, same as between minor or Doric.
At the end, all you have to remember is that tune was a "two-finger" tune with "C nat"--Mixolydian, then. etc.
You can also try it with a keyboard. Its chromatic nature allows you to get both tone and mode. But then (if you're not a pianist) it takes analyzing what keys you had to play, to understand what scale you were in. I guess you could do the same with just one string on the guitar.

I have to say that for all this I find a great help in a little disc gadget I made for myself, using a CD box for scale and a labelled CD for dial. It's a sort of modal calculator : tells me what mode I can play with what whistle, and helps transposing too. It also helps me with interpreting sheet music ; it has a reminder for the key signatures, and helps me understand that something noted with 2 # at the key may not be necessarily D major or A minor or, for instance, that I might be better off with an A rather than D whistle.
Now I haven't yet found how to market it.
I did send a copy to Dale, though, but he never replied, or acknowledged... Maybe my mail, with an Acrobat (.pdf) attached got stopped by his spam-blocker ?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2003-02-11 18:09 ]</font>

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:00 pm

Oh, Zoob, I gotta see your gadget! If you still have the PDF, maybe you could post a link or (better yet) send it to me. If you click on the little e-mail icon under my post I'll get it.

Hee hee!

M

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:04 pm

Zoob!

Me too! Me too!

Best wishes,
Jerry

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:25 pm

Hey, I know this reply is off topic, but "soap OPRAHS"? A bit of commentary there, hmmm?

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:27 pm

Thanks to you all.
James that is just what I`m talking about. Playing in a session where there isn`t one single tune I know. The book idea sounds like it could be a big help. I will give it a try. I can pick things up pretty well by ear and it suits my lack of patients to be able to play music without all the study but this Irish trad is a different animal.
Great link Redseard. I quess that will occupie my time tonight.
Eric why aren`t you playing that flute instead of reading these posts. Thanks for the info. I hadn`t thought about dicecting chords that way.
Holy smodes Sarah that was an eye opener for me. I never did any music theory I always just made music without knowing what I was doing. It does look like study time for the beer man.
Hey Zubivka i`m with Marguerite on your little gizzmo. That sounds realy cool. I actualy do use your system when I am trying to learn a tune from a CD or tape. I just keep messing around until it fits on the whistle.
Again thanks for all this info. I knew I was in for some work when I fell in love with this stupid little whistle and now the flute. Maybe soma would help

Tom

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:00 pm

Tom - I can't play until tomorrow night!

The flute is across town at UPS and I didn't get home early enough to go pick it up. I'll have to wait until tomorrow afternoon's scheduled delivery.

Oh, well...

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:20 pm

Oh man, sorry Eric. Talk about twisting the knife. I thought you had it in your hands. If I were you I`d take tomorrow off so as not to miss delivery . But then I am a little less then responsible when it comes to just about anything.

Tom

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:29 am

BB,

It seems to me that the theory is getting in the way of the practice.

I suggest that you focus first on getting a tune off by ear by lilting/humming along with the recording, then stop the recording and play the tune on the whistle in whatever key allows you to play it without any half-holing and just the (fipple-end)0XX 000(bell-end) cross-fingering for C natural.

I know nothing about keys and modes, but for the vast majority of Irish tunes, that means that the tune is played on the scale that starts at XXX 000.

If your interest is Irish Trad, I wouldn't recommend learning from a tune book at all, unless you have difficulty picking out the notes by ear. There are truckloads of threads on the ear versus score approach to learning.

bozemanhc · Post by **bozemanhc** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:55 am

There is a major difference between learning a tune on a guitar and whistle. With a guitar you can learn the chords and the standard chord progressions generally used in traditional music (the three chords for each key). Then you can gradually begin to pick the notes within the chords until you have the tune. However, the whistle is a melody instrument; it doesnt play chords directly, so you need to learn the tune from the beginning.
As many have said on this forum, listening to lots of tunes (in our case Irish tunes) over and over will enable you to develop a feel for the music and you will begin to anticipate the next note to play. Those who have the ability to pick up a tune by ear are especially blessed. but this ability can be learned or at least improved by consistant listening.
Take your time; it will come.