Lithuanian Bagpipes?

[sean an piobaire]

Interesting Posts, my fellow Pipers !
Zsamier Sasnouski of the Stary Osa group contacted me in 2007
about performing at that year's Festival in Minsk. He indicated that the US State Dept.
would pay to fly me to BelaRus, and what would I charge for my appearance ?
I said $750 USD and a BelaRus Duda. Nobody at the State Dept. contacted me
and no further Emails came from Mr. Sasnouski, so after a time, I knew I wasn't going to BelaRus.
To be sure, it was nice to be asked about playing at the BelaRus Duda Fest !
The Stary Osa group has had a web presence for many years now, and they have been
taking the "Medieval" approach (with period clothes) to reclaiming their BelaRus Folk Music.
This is similar to the approach that my group Sheila na Gig did with Irish Music of the Renaissance
in the late 1970s, but giving a twist away from that deadly label for the commercial Music "Biz",
"Folk Music" with it's freight of singer-song writers in blue jeans and work shirts
(with a sign that says, "I'm an Irish Drunk, Exploit Me" silk-screened on it).
One of the OTHER routes now.... following the example of Musicians of the former "DDR" is to combine
their Bagpipes with Heavy Metal Music, which can be traced to my dear old USA (Blue Cheer)
and the UK (the WHO). Even a friend of mine, David Miles, played his Hurdy Gurdy on a Metallica record.
A Hurdy Gurdy is not a Bagpipe, but very close to it, when amplified. There are plenty of "Rock" Bands with GHBs
here in the USA....the Drop-Kick Murphys, Black 47, etc. there more Bands being added everyday it seems.
Those Pipers in Germany are loud enough, with Pipes based on Scots GHBs
with those fantastic Drone and Chanter Funnels, and maybe with slightly better Microphone attachments,
that they can "Keep Up" in decibel output with the rest of the Band (Electric Guitars and an "amped" Drum Kit).
The poor Pipers in the Baltic, with their Pipes modeled after actual traditions, seem to have a much harder time
of it. hence, the need for a Bagpipe solo in that one video listed here.
As for the Neo Pagan feeling being evoked, it "Spooks" a lot of people, because of the recent history
of the Third Reich, and it had also been building up through Reich's One (Otto von Bismarck) and Two (Kaiser Wilhelm)
I have read that whenever Himmler's SS archaeology teams would uncover some more Hallstadt sites etc,
Hitler would say, "Cover them back up ! It just proves that our ancestors lived in holes in the ground,
while Persopolis was a great city" ! Even the Sutton Hoo material in England suffered from these 1930s
interpretations, as the diggers had only uncovered the trash pits and had not found the Post Holes of
the Houses nearby. (You see the refuse pit was always some distance from the house !)
Thus, it was believed (in the 30s) that the Anglo Saxons lived in THEIR garbage pits !
As for Persia and their ARYANS, that was the focus of most 19th Century German linguistic study,
and part of the larger study of Indo-European languages (qv.).
To be sure, the Nazi pantheon was informed in parts of real myth and folk-lore, mixed up with
19th century ROMANTIC notions.....of Richard Wagner and many other Romantics....
but the point is to me, that the Folk Lore was just a "Horse to Ride" for the Nazis,
and the cynical use of these spiritual ideas for political power gains were, are, or should be, well known.
The study of History and Folk Lore has lead me to the conclusion that we are all one Humanity,
with much the same stories, and a universal desire to make Music.
Sean Folsom

[CHasR]

.... combine their Bagpipes with Heavy Metal Music, which can be traced to my dear old USA (Blue Cheer)

well, well, ...THATS a name I havent heard in a a looong time....once recorded as the loudest band @ 130+ db, if I recall correctly..think I still have that album (only one, as far as I know) molding over somewhere...best "sumertime blues" ev-ER !

....
There are plenty of "Rock" Bands with GHBs
here in the USA....the Drop-Kick Murphys, Black 47, etc. there more Bands being added everyday it seems.

Now add the one i'm in : 'Sylvia Platypus'. We 're knockin 'em dead @ the Troc these days

And yes, the logo is a platypus suspended in a bell jar.


I never had much time for that aryan stuff, but I have gigged in plenty of garbage pits.
However, the 'extra-cirricular' use of bagpipes interests me no end...

[Yuri]

Sean, folklore is a "horse to ride" for anyone who can be bothered to take an interest. People who do genuine folklore don't talk about it, let alone make a philosophy of it. They just live it.

[sean an piobaire]

OH NO..... NOT "U" TOO,,,,,,,, CHARLES !
Oh, Bagpipe heavy, metal Bagpipe, rock (no roll)........
The Girl Can't Help It (2xs) The Piper Can't Help It (3xs)
I hope you make some money at it....... before you loose your hearing.
A Platypus in a Bell Jar.........seems slightly confining.

Yes, LIVE that Folk Lore, even though it requires lots of TALK,
really, when you think about it. Sorry for any post-modern recovery
of the words "Folk" or "Lore" I should have used "Traditional Tradition".
Instead of a Horse, how about a Cart to ride around in, hitched to the
Horse ?

[CHasR]

no, i havent had any luck turning Sylvia onto U2, yet...but my earplug budget HAS doubled.
You are on the bulls-eye: pipes in "indie" bands (as we're now called ) is quite the flavour of the moment. Glad I copped all those licks offa Rufus.

[sean an piobaire]

Here's another video on the subject of this thread.

Title: Jonas Misevicius-LDK Labranoro Duda [2 dalis]+istorija

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqhyl02E ... re=related

My own description:
A Lithuanian Gentleman in a Suit, with Short Hair, discoursing on the
history of his instrument, then playing his Duda,
accompanied by a Long Haired Young Gentleman
with a single Drumstick, beating his Drum.
The time is 2:16 in length.
Note:
There's a Pakistani GHB on a chair to the side, perhaps Mr. Misevicius
plays this instrument as well.

There's another video with Mr. Misevicius, but at only 1:16 in length

Dwakman Pennygu !
Sean "Lugan" Folsom

[MTGuru]

Sean, folklore is a "horse to ride" for anyone who can be bothered to take an interest. People who do genuine folklore don't talk about it, let alone make a philosophy of it. They just live it.

You have a point, Yuri. But, thankfully, things are not always so black and white. When I studied at the Folklore Institute, many of the students were arguably tradition-bearers themselves, with a foot in both worlds, and very aware of emic/etic issues. Folklorists are not all academic snobs, and folk are not all anti-intellectual peasants. That dichotomy is, itself, a Romantic fallacy. Some people who do genuine folklore talk about it a great deal, and quite eloquently.

Sean, I think you'll find that the single word "folklore" is the usual preferred term fairly universally and even across languages.

[Yuri]

It actually is a bit tricky form me to talk about these tings in English. Simple reason is that "folk" music, art, whatever means not quite the same thing as the nearest translation of this term into the other two languages I speak. In both Hungarian and Russian "folk music has a very specific meaning, probably best translated into English as something on the lines of "traditional rural-based locally evolved style of music, clearly specific to a given area." Maybe it's not the best translation, but it gives you the idea. Clearly, Bob Dylan and the like do not qualify. In fact, any music that you can put a composer's name to doesn't qualify. Which is partly why it is "folk" music.
All this doesn't mean that we are talking about a bunch of backwood bums. Far from it, and most certainly these people are aware of just what they do. But. They are only aware of it because of the fact that so much interest has been taken in their ways by highbrow city intellectuals, who bored the pants off tem asking all sort of stupid questions. Before the late Romantic inteest in folk ways rural people certainly were aware that the arts they do are not quite the same as those of city people, but it simply didn't matter. What I mean, there was no understanding of th implications. Or, rather, no interest in the implications. After all, what does it matter?" They are different folks from us, so naturally they have a different approach to the arts." That would have been the normal response. And, mind you, that's why local styles could exist, really. Since the advance of city-based intellectual's interest in folk music and arts in general there has been more and more distortion of genuine folk music. I know for a fact that when I was a kid in Hungary, folk music was a rather different beast from what it is today. For one thing, no-one heard about Irish folk back then (in Hungary, I mean), and now Irish folk (among others) influenced Hungarian folk very obviously, with the result that traditional Hungarian music is becoming rather rarer than it should be. Another instance is the koboz (a kind of lute. While it existed in historical Hungary, it died out there centuries ago. Not so in Rumania. These days the koboz is everywhere in Hungarian folk music, thanks to re-introducing it from Rumania. The problem is that what it plays is the repertoire of folk music that only evolved after it already was history. So its use is very questionable if you are a purist.
Ah, well, jut my 5 cents' worth.

[s1m0n]

"Folk music" is notoriously indefinable in english, too.

[sean an piobaire]

I'm glad that certain aspects of this discussion have "matured"
so I can add some more words.....
From my readings of history, I believe the "Historic" Nazi Party was NOT interested in
any "Genuine" Folk Lore, any more than most historic or modern "Christians" were/are interested
in the any messages of the person(s) most people call "Jesus" !
My country of the USA is humming with many Atheists who USE the King James Bible
to amass great wealth, which they gather from individuals who fear the wrathful God of the
Old Testament. I believe that these people who dish-out this fear are themselves
Atheists because if they did fear God as much as they wish other people to Fear God,
they WOULD NOT dish out this Fear, in order to amass the wealth they now have at their
disposal. They must look at their followers as dupes and idiots, so easy to manipulate,
and laugh at these believers in secret.
Western Neo-Pagans can fall victim to the same kind of Neo-Nazi sociopaths, ranting with hate for any
scape-goat their attention is directed to, and yes, it is a "Horse to Ride" because there's money to be made,
and certainly it does provide a sense of belonging to a group, realizing it's power in numbers, kind of a modern,
sanitized, "Odin Blut".
For myself, I look to the study of genuine folklore to provide an understanding of the "e pluribus unum" concept,
not any narrow Nationalist view point, hence my large collection of Bagpipes, which does put holes in some
theories of "Racial Superiority".
Sean Folsom

[s1m0n]

From my readings of history, I believe the "Historic" Nazi Party was NOT interested in
any "Genuine" Folk Lore, any more than most historic or modern "Christians" were/are interested ..

The Nazi party's preferred past was just as imaginary as any other, including ours, but they had more invested in it.

~~

The latest issue of fRoots has an article about La Brass Banda, a Bavarian brass band that has given itself a massive fun upgrade by copping moves from balkan gypsy brass bands. As the article points out, balkan brass bears much inherited from the german brass tradition of the austro-hungarian (the article ignores the ottoman influence, but it's as significant) empire, and now the influence has cycled round once more. The two cultures (and many more) have been feeding each other forever; the Nazi's error was to pretend this was a one-way trade.

[sean an piobaire]

Yes Simon, good points !
It's thought that the big parade Drum (played with 2 sticks) became fashionable in
Switzerland and many other German states, after visits to Eastern Europe
by Armies of the newly minted Ottoman Empire (i.e.Turkey) starting in the last half of the 1400s.
In Europe, they played these big Drums along with Fifes, to stimulate the crowds at Jousts
and many other large public entertainments.
Yes, EVERYBODY in Eastern Europe/Balkans will tell you that they stopped
the Turks and saved European Civilization ("a great idea" said Mahatma Ghandi).
And So They Did !!!!
The Poles, the Czechs, the Serbs at Kosovo, and so on, certainly the least amount of time
of Turkish occupation in the Balkans was Hungary.....at only about 150 years.
(exact dates Yuri ?)
Lots of war, "blood taxes" (the 1st born male child taken to 'Stanbul to be a Jannisary) ,
resistance by the Hajduks, reprisal slaughters, just a terrible History............
The music of the "Mehter" or "Janissary" Bands, was originally played on
Drums (Darvuli), Cymbals (Zils), and Shawms (Zurnas) and was a major part of all Turkish
military campaigns. In the 19th century, the Turks added European Brass Instruments (with valves).
You can still see (and hear) the basic Mehter ensemble of Darvuls & Zurnas
exciting the crowd at Turkish wrestling matches.
In Western Europe, 18th century Noblemen couldn't raise a Regiment without hiring a good
Band of Musicians first. The Hungarian Pipers' Verbunk tunes was one example
of a recruiting incentive used by the Hapsburgs for recruiting their renowned HUSSAR Regiments.

[Celtpastor]

@Sean: I agree with EVERY WORD You wrote about so-called "Christians", even more so about Neo-"Pagan"-music as well as ancient AND modern "Germanic" Nazis. My added 5 Cent: The ancient Nazis actually destroyed every true local musical tradition - something which is only very recently being dug out again here in Eastern Frisia, e.g.

@Yuri: I prefer, for this very reason, the label "trad" music, meaning either truly traditional as well as traditionally influenced music. Dylan would be neither. However, as someone said (different person are reported to have said this first): "Tradition is not worshipping the ashes, but distributing the fire!" So, a trad music that sounded exactly like 300yrs ago would be, i.m.h.O., dead. But traditional- or traditional-style music played on traditional AND modern instruments and arranged in a way that makes modern people dance traditional dances - THAT IS trad (cf. Martyn Bennet, Ashley MacIsaac and the like - or most folk-dance music You'll hear very successfully played for trad dancing in Brittany). That doesn't mean You have to like it - but that would be "modern tradition"...

[Yuri]

The dates are from around 1545 till about 1683 or so. It's actually misleading, because the Turks were already moving in before that, and lingering on in some spots after . The cut-off date taken usually is that of the reconquest of Buda, the capital, not the expulsion of the Turks out of the country.

Cord, it's all very well, about the "modern traditional" music. But. There are certain tiny problems with it. Take a tradition where it cen be demonstrated much more clearly- the Indian. They had an unbelievably complex system of ragas, that more-or-less corresponds to our modal system, but by no means the same. Now, totally misguided missionaries imported that ghastly joke of an instrument, the harmonium. As a result, the Indians took it on, modified it to be playable by one hand, and blowable by the other, and ended up with something that is "modern traditional". Except for a small detail. It is tuned in equal temperament, which has nothing to do with Indian music theory, and is totally incapable of doing justice to the intricacy of the native ancient ragas. As a result you get a completely bastardised music churned out on an instrument alien to the very spirit of the local tradition. Another one. When in mid-ninetennth century they introduced the squeezebox into Russia, it was such an enormous hit that it managed to completely wipe out all native music traditions within a generation. I'm not kidding, in this case it was a total "musicocide". there simply isn't anything surviving from before the 18th. century. In Hungarian music, in comparison, there are very clearly differentiated styles co-existing from different eras, and it's relatively simple to date them approximately, as in "pre-settlement" (that is, belonging to the time of the nomadic tribes, still living somewhere south of the Urals), early medieval derivatives, Renaissance derivatives, baroque influenced, 19th c. cafe music influenced, and nationalistic revival, a pale equivalent of the German nationalistic revival.
In Russia there simply isn't anything like that surviving, thanks to the onslaught of the squeezebox. (OK, not only, but it did influence things to a huge extent). So this whole thing of any kind of traditional music being of equal value, or should we say relevance, well, I don't buy into it, as I have seen far too many irreversible "musicocides" as a result of that attitude. Think of the synthethiser-based Turkish folk, the heavy bass-driven Lebanes or Balkan folk, and well, I probably will be kicked out of this forum for this, but the modern Irish folk has not all that much to do with true Irish traditions. Don't misundrstand it, in neither of these cases do I mean that the newer version is invalid. What I'm driving at is that murdering an older style in the name of questionable progress is just not my cup of tea. (In the case of Irish music, where are the harps? The lyres? The bagpipes, reedpipes, hurdy-gurdies, all of which have a completely different aesthetics from that of the squeezebox, (Irish, ha-ha) bouzuki, (Irish, ditto) guitar, etc.
OK, MtGuru, you can ban me now for life.

[MTGuru]

OK, MtGuru, you can ban me now for life.

Sure, Yuri, consider yourself banned. You can turn in your badge and keys at the door, and we'll assign your spot in the car park to someone else.