Pentatonic - an idle Sunday question

[talasiga]

Yes, panceltic piper, I applied indic raag names for those scales. Maalshri and Hindol and Bhopal Todi types are therefore often heard in the musics of SE Asia down to Bali.

I got out my Kilberry Book of Ceol Mor and the first fifteen tunes use four different Penatonic scales, one Hexatonic scale, and one full scale:
1 2 3 5 6 (four tunes) (the Amazing Grace scale)
1 2 3 4 5 (two tunes)
1 2 4 5 6 (two tunes)
1 2 4 5 b7 (two tunes) (we finally come to the supposedly typical Scottish flat 7th, and the scale referred to above as THE Scottish pentatonic scale)
...........

well, the 1 2 3 5 6 is major pentatonic (MP)
the 1 2 4 5 6 is the mode from the former's perfect fifth
and 1 2 4 5 b7 is the mode from MP's second.

[cboody]

From a melody player's perspective I don't think it does. I've been playing Mairi's Wedding for four years on highland pipes, and for about 10 years before that on fiddle and tin whistle, and I never realized it was pentatonic.

Err. But Maire's Wedding is hexatonic if you play it on an instrument that has the "lowered 7th" available (and C natural in the key signature of G -- please note I did not say it was "in G"). The notes used in that signature are DE GABC.

[hans]

But Maire's Wedding is hexatonic

Yes, stupid me saying it is pentatonic!

I'd like to add that calling one of the pentatonic modes based on the Western diatonic scale "Scottish pentatonic" can be seen as misleading, as there are as many if not more Scottish tunes using what is called "Major pentatonic" mode by jazz musicians, as there are tunes using "Scottish pentatonic". Are there better names for these five modes? Would it be better just to refer to them as mode 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? But even these names are not used consistently for the same patterns. Call it "Ritusen" for its use in Chinese music? But it is used lots in Scottish music. It is one of the two pentatonic modes native on the HP chanter, both having a large repertoire of tunes.

Thanks talasiga for those pentatonic raag patterns! I am going to explore these! There seems to be a huge amount of different pentatonic modes apart from the five modes based on the Western diatonic scale.
Looking at http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/modename.html under "12 tone modes" there are the following pentatonic modes listed (more than 70), with their various names (The five modes based on the major scale in bold):

2 3 2 1 4 Han-kumoi: Japan, Raga Shobhavari, Sutradhari
2 1 4 1 4 Hira-joshi, Kata-kumoi, Yona Nuki mineur: Japan
1 4 2 1 4 Hon-kumoi-joshi, Sakura, Akebono II: Japan, Olympos Enharmonic, Raga Salanganata, Saveri, Gunakri (Gunakali), Latantapriya, Ambassel: Ethiopia
1 4 2 3 2 Kokin-joshi, Miyakobushi, Han-Iwato, In Sen: Japan, Raga Vibhavari (Revati), Bairagi, Lasaki
1 4 1 4 2 Iwato: Japan
2 3 2 2 3 Ritusen, Ritsu (Gagaku): Japan, Zhi, Zheng: China, Raga Devakriya, Durga, Suddha Saveri, Arabhi, Scottish Pentatonic, Ujo, P'yongjo: Korea, Major complement
2 2 3 2 3 Major Pentatonic, Ryosen, Yona Nuki majeur: Japan, Man Jue, Gong: China, Raga Bhopali (Bhup), Mohanam, Deskar, Bilahari, Kokila, Jait Kalyan, Peruvian Pentatonic 1, Ghana pent.2, Tezeta Major (Tizita): Ethiopia
2 3 2 3 2 Yo: Japan, Suspended Pentatonic, Raga Madhyamavati, Madhmat Sarang, Megh, Egyptian, Shang, Rui Bin, Jin Yu, Qing Yu: China
2 3 3 2 2 Chaio: China
2 2 2 3 3 Kung: China
1 4 2 2 3 Altered Pentatonic, Raga Manaranjani II
2 1 2 4 3 Raga Abhogi
4 2 1 4 1 Raga Amritavarshini, Malashri, Shilangi
2 1 2 3 4 Raga Audav Tukhari
4 1 4 2 1 Raga Bhinna Shadja, Kaushikdhvani, Hindolita
1 2 4 1 4 Balinese Pelog, Madenda Modern, Raga Bhupalam, Bhupala Todi, Bibhas, Tezeta Minor: Ethiopia
2 2 3 1 4 Raga Bhupeshwari, Janasammodini
2 2 1 2 5 Raga Budhamanohari
3 2 4 2 1 Raga Chandrakauns (modern), Marga Hindola, Rajeshwari
3 2 4 1 2 Raga Chandrakauns (kafi), Surya, Varamu
3 2 3 3 1 Raga Chandrakauns (kiravani)
1 2 3 2 4 Raga Chhaya Todi
1 2 2 3 4 Raga Chitthakarshini
2 3 2 4 1 Raga Desh
1 6 1 3 1 Raga Deshgaur
5 2 1 3 1 Raga Devaranjani (Devaranji)
3 2 2 3 2 Minor Pentatonic, Raga Dhani (Suddha Dhanyasi), Abheri, Udhayaravi Chandrika, Qing Shang, Gu Xian, Jia Zhong, Yu: China, P'yongjo-kyemyonjo: Korea, Minyo: Japan, Peruvian Pentatonic 2, Blues Pentatonic, Bati: Ethiopia
4 2 1 2 3 Raga Dhavalashri
4 1 2 4 1 Raga Gambhiranata, Ryukyu: Japan, Pelog Degung Modern
1 4 2 4 1 Raga Gauri
4 1 3 3 1 Bacovia: Romania, Raga Girija
2 3 4 1 2 Raga Guhamanohari
2 2 3 4 1 Raga Hamsadhvani (Hansadhvani)
3 3 2 2 2 Raga Harikauns, Chin: China
4 2 3 2 1 Raga Hindol (Sunada Vinodini), Sanjh ka Hindol
3 2 1 4 2 Raga Jayakauns
4 1 4 1 2 Raga Khamaji Durga
3 2 2 1 4 Raga Kokil Pancham
1 4 3 3 1 Raga Kshanika
1 1 6 3 1 Raga Kumarapriya
2 2 2 5 1 Raga Kumurdaki (Kumudki)
5 2 2 1 2 Raga Kuntvarali (Kuntalavarali)
3 2 3 2 2 Raga Malkauns (Malakosh), Raga Hindola, Man Gong, Quan Ming, Yi Ze, Jiao: China
4 3 2 2 1 Raga Mamata
1 3 3 3 2 Raga Manaranjani I
2 5 2 1 2 Raga Matha Kokila (Matkokil)
1 3 1 3 4 Raga Megharanjani, Syrian pentatonic
1 3 1 6 1 Raga Megharanji
3 1 3 2 3 Raga Mohanangi
3 3 1 4 1 Raga Multani
1 1 4 1 5 Raga Nabhomani
4 1 2 2 3 Raga Nagasvaravali, Raga Mand
3 2 2 4 1 Raga Nata, Udayaravicandrika, Madhuranjani
2 2 5 2 1 Raga Neroshta
2 3 3 3 1 Raga Priyadharshini
2 1 2 2 5 Raga Purnalalita, Chad Gadyo: Jewish, Ghana Pentatonic 1, Nando-kyemyonjo: Korea
5 2 2 2 1 Raga Puruhutika, Purvaholika
1 1 6 1 3 Raga Putrika
1 3 3 2 3 Raga Rasika Ranjani, Vibhas (marva), Scriabin
2 3 4 2 1 Raga Rasranjani
1 3 3 1 4 Raga Reva, Revagupti, Ramkali, Vibhas (bhairava)
1 2 4 3 2 Raga Rukmangi
3 3 1 3 2 Raga Samudhra Priya, Madhukauns (pentatonic)
1 5 1 1 4 Raga Saugandhini, Yashranjani
2 1 4 2 3 Raga Sivaranjini (Shivranjani), Akebono I: Japan, Dorian Pentatonic
3 4 1 2 2 Raga Shailaja, Varini
2 4 1 2 3 Raga Shri Kalyan
2 4 3 2 1 Raga Shubravarni
2 4 1 4 1 Raga Vaijayanti, Hamsanada
4 3 2 1 2 Raga Valaji
4 1 2 1 4 Raga Zilaf
2 2 3 3 2 Dominant Pentatonic
4 1 2 3 2 Mixolydian Pentatonic, Raga Savethri
3 2 2 2 3 Minor added sixth Pentatonic, Kyemyonjo: Korea

[talasiga]

Here are some common Raaga names for the major pentatonic scale series
(this isn't just book info or google result but i have experience behind this post, so i am happy to receive any questions):-

1 2 3 5 6 / 22323 Bhoop/ Bhupaali/ Deshkar/

1 2 4 5 b7 / 23232 Madhyamadh Saarang/ Megh Malhar

1 3 4 b6 b7 / 32322 Malkauns

1 2 4 5 6 / 23223 Durga / Shudh Malhar

1 3 4 5 b7 / 32232 Dhani

Why i am giving these here? u can utube search and get an example of how these scales pan out in action. for instance you might like to hear how no chinese these can sound when played according to a tradition despite Steve Shaw's stirring post ......

[highland-piper]

From a melody player's perspective I don't think it does. I've been playing Mairi's Wedding for four years on highland pipes, and for about 10 years before that on fiddle and tin whistle, and I never realized it was pentatonic.

Err. But Maire's Wedding is hexatonic if you play it on an instrument that has the "lowered 7th" available (and C natural in the key signature of G -- please note I did not say it was "in G"). The notes used in that signature are DE GABC.

Well that reinforces my point. It didn't make any difference to mewhen I thought it was pentatonic and it doesn't make any difference to me to find out that it's hexatonic.

[I.D.10-t]

How does pentatonic change playing compared to a 7 note scale?

It can't. Doesn't have the wherewithal to effect anything. It might be able to affect it, though.....

You know I have looked that damn word up and still gotten it wrong. There I fixed it.

[Denny]

is okay, Jem & Steve love to help

There/their/they're even worse'n me

[jemtheflute]

is okay, Jem & Steve love to help

There/their/they're even worse'n me

Nah, you're/your/yore/yaw far worse than us!

That effect/affect thing is an occard one - is why it annoys me 'cos it is so often mixed up/used wrongly. If you say them right (i.e. eschewing the English neutral vowel) that is usually a fair guide to getting the right initial vowel. It is confusing, though, as the effects of an action affect the subject, etc. Remembering the Latin adverbial prefix-sources may help: a, ad = to, at, towards; e, ex = out of, from - which direction is the concept working in?

[Denny]

is okay, Jem & Steve love to help

There/their/they're even worse'n me

Nah, you're/your/yore/yaw far worse than us!

I'm good with you're/your/yer...

yore: isn't that like ah, back in the days of yore?
yaw: that's sumthin' a sailboat does, innt?

[jemtheflute]

yore: isn't that like ah, back in the days of yore?
yaw: that's sumthin' a sailboat does, innt?

Both correct.... and both homonyms for the others, at least in British pronunciation.

[talasiga]

i guess its ok to trivialise or hijack a topic which has "idle" in its topic title ......

[jemtheflute]

"Hijack"? I hardly think one has been effected. Affectation of triviality in a sideline? Perchance.

[DrPhill]

A little lack of focus is expected at this late stage.....

I thank all the contributors to this discussion, as usual the topic is bigger than I had imagined. Some of the technical stuff went out of my range, but I have learnt several important things:

• * There are large numbers of pentatonic modes if you use the broad definition of 'five notes'
  * Only a limited subset of these modes are used in the music common here (the west?)
  * A mode is a pattern of interval, a scale is a mode applied to a particular pitch (not just for pentatonics)
  * I have a list of the locally common pentatonic scales on a D whistle.
  * Hints at a concept that not all notes in a scale are as important as others. This may be an over interpretation of a comment attributed to O'Cannain. When I can figure out the question, I would like to stimulate some discussion on this point.

So thanks all.

[jemtheflute]

That's what you get for affecting idleness! Or, on a Sunday, should that be "affecting idolatry"?

[I.D.10-t]

Back on topic.





I still don't get the point of calling something pentatonic, especially with the gaped tunes and such. I understand the significance of why there is a A# and a Bb even if on a piano they are the same note. Musically I just don't understand what the term "pentatonic" is trying to tell me. Heck, it isn't even important enough to be added to sheet music. From what I gather, most of the Japanese traditional festival tunes are pentatonic, yet the shinbone and Ryuteki and other flutes still are made with a 7 note scale. The shakuhachi seems to be the outlier in that it is one of the few instruments designed with a 5 note scale in mind, and it has what 20+ tunes written for it?