Did I breach etiquette?

[emmdee]

Strictly speaking, I didn't ask for advice. I asked for opinion. Specifically informed opinion. Everybody has one, as is clear from the many of use who enjoy these forums and discussions.

Boiled down, I got 4 responses. With the guys who didn't respond, I have no problem. Either they are too busy, or they think the question's not worthy of their time, or whatever. 3 of the 4 respondents gave me a quick opinion (Maurice Reviol, as well as Terry and Gilles), which probably took all of 5 minutes to type. One gave his opinion and then went on to express dissatisfaction about giving up his valuable time to a non-customer. He was of the opinion that I acted wrongly. I wasn't, but it did make me think sufficiently to initiate this thread. Some people think I was very wrong, some people think it was a little wrong, some people think it wasn't wrong at all. A p.m. response said somebody else had a similar experience of grouchiness from the same guy.

Do I think what I did was out of order? No. Would I do it again? No. I'd approach it with a lot more thought. On balance, I made a mistake of being too general. Mea culpa? Not quite. Small fault on both sides, and nobody died over it. There's naught as queer as folk.

Shall we end it here?
m.d.

[Casey Burns]

I'll come out in the open and mention that I am the "offending" flute maker. Its time to tell my side of the story. Here is all the correspondence - not just the last snippet:

"Subject: flute inquiry
Dear Casey
I hope I can trouble you for an opinion about boxwood. All other things being equal (embouchure cut, bore size, hole size), do you think boxwood is a material you'd recommend for a keyed flute, as opposed to blackwood? I ask because I'm looking for a new flute and boxwood appeals to me aesthetically more than blackwood, but obviously the sound is more important than the look when all's said and done.
Thanks for your time
m.d."

I responded:
"Hi Mark,
Boxwood is great and makes for a fine keyed flute. Its only drawback is a tendency to warpage. I take care of this by sizing the wood by microwaving it while in the turning stage. It becomes just as stable as blackwood then.
Tonally, boxwood has a certain lovely liveliness that recommends it. Volume is close to blackwood, but maybe just a tad bit less (the trade-off for the liveliness).
I've made a number of keyed flutes in boxwood and all have performed well.
Casey"

He wrote back:
"Thanks ever so much, Casey. FWIW, I've been a fan of boxwood since I Played a boxwood Wilkes owned by a friend of mine. Obviously, Chris could make a flute out of MDF, but still... It's nice to gauge opinions from makers, as opposed to people who only play 'em.
Best of luck
m.d."

I then added as an afterthought:
"So are you interested in getting a boxwood flute from me or from another maker? I like to know since it takes a while to get the wood all ready for these.
Casey"

To which he responded:
"Ah, without wishing to be rude, I asked the same question to about 20 makers just to see what makers thought of boxwood. I've actually been on Patrick Olwell's list since 2006; when my turn comes I might consider a boxwood 6 keyed over a blackwood.
Hope that doesn't suck but, frankly, I think many of the opinions you might find online from players are not necessarily all that well informed and makers know their stuff.
I appreciate your help.
m.d."

So I threw in a line of gentle suggestion:
"It would be more appropriate to let the makers know this beforehand. We have to earn a living after all and don't earn anything by shelling out free advice.
Casey"

Note that in the first email he used the subject "Flute Inquiry" and states that "I'm looking for a new flute". Usually this means that someone is browsing my website and considering buying one of my flutes. This still gives me a thrill after 30 years of flute making. I enjoy answering such queries even though I am sometimes swamped by emails and would rather be making the instruments themselves or playing music instead of sitting in front of my computer. Much of the time such inquiries result in an order of a flute for me or another maker. So I answer them.

Then it was revealed that the purpose of his inquiry was to ask questions about a flute that he already had on order with Patrick Olwell and that several makers were contacted. I responded tersely at the end with a suggestion of etiquette on behalf of all of us flute makers - doing my part to "educate the masses". Had I been really bent out of shape by this he would have gotten an earful! C&F has done that for me instead and the varied responses here are interesting.

I don't mind answering queries from potential flute clients or people simply searching for information that may some day lead to a flute order. However, I am very uncomfortable when placed in the situation of sticking my nose into another flute maker's business and interfering with that maker's already ongoing transaction! Its none of my business. Unfortunately this was the case here.

He should just go with Patrick Olwell's opinions about the flute he has on order with him and not ask other makers to weigh in. If Patrick has something to say about which flutes, wood etc. one can be 100% certain that it is true fact. He's one of the top makers on the planet, for gosh sakes! Why would anyone need a second opinion?

The time spent answering emails is something to consider. Say each of the 20 flute makers spent an average 10 minutes each reading, considering it and replying to this inquiry. In total cumulative flute making time, this amounts to 200 minutes, about the amount of time it takes me to produce one of my Folk Flutes at $375, assuming I don't run into any wood defects. Say we get 10 such exchanges a month (including the questions from people who seem to enjoy asking questions as a hobby or maybe its their only social outlet (sometimes I'll get 20 or more emails just from one person) but who never get around to ordering something). That's 120 such inquiries a year and equivalent to 120 flutes that never got made.

And people wonder why our waiting times are so long?

Casey

[crookedtune]

Very reasonable. The OP knew he had breached etiquette. Otherwise, there would be no thread. No biggie, just a gentle lesson for all of us enthusiasts.

[Gordon]

As a thread about etiquette breaching, there is an irony in MD omitting the actual exchange (and the number of them), and then praising by name those he deemed helpful. Given the exchange with Casey, I've no doubt those other makers also reasonably assumed that they were helping at least a potential customer. In deciding makers, we've probably all emailed several makers we ultimately did not choose with questions. But if you know, beyond doubt, you definitely do not want a particular maker's flute, why would their opinion on wood choices, or anything else, matter in the first place? Reading through the exchanges, there was an early implied interest in Casey's flutes in order to get information from him. Really not cool. Rather than being crabby and petty, as portrayed, I think Casey was quite helpful in his initial responses, and his tactful question and response in the later return was more than appropriate.

[Denny]

[Steampacket]

Interesting, after having placed an order with a very experienced and renowned flutemaker there was still a need to solicit the opinons of other craftsmen/women regarding the true nature of boxwood? Prehaps MD didn't, or doesn't realise Pat's standing in the flute community?. Casey has behaved like a gentleman whilst MD has also breached etiquette by trying to cast Casey in an unfavourable light. Please cease breaching etiquette in such a brazen manner MD, I fear I'll have to retire to my chambers and partake of my smelling salts

[Akiba]

deleted

[Julia Delaney]

BFD.

[uillmann]

BFD.

Boxwood sucks anyway. Go with ABW or cocus.

[fiddlerwill]

Cocus.
I have an antique set of Cocus GHB, Hendersons, my pride and joy , and they are the sweetest set of pipes ever! Well apart from PM Angus MacDonald's which are awesome! Now if I could just play them like the master himself , Id be a very happy man

[m31]

You get all kinds in retail, serious buyers and duds. It's the cost of doing business. BFD is about right.

FWIW, Delrin toots great and will never banana on you.

[talasiga]

note how there are 6 movements in the line of correspondence quoted by Casey ......

[uillmann]

you discussed a business deal with a business man.

No, I discussed a common passion with an artisan and friend. And if I had bought a flute elsewhere, he would have sold my flute to someone else, no problemo.

[talasiga]

Good Gentlemen of Freedonia ......

[psychodonald]

Yeah Mark, IMHO you blew it. I see Casey's point of view. Your email was deceptive and the way you presented the issue when you wrote this post was less than candid; you omitted a lot of stuff that when one has a more complete picture, leaves me, at least, with the idea that you were trying to justify behavior that you most likely knew was not correct in the first place.

I've done similar kinds of things mostly due to my impulsive nature and the thought that my questions are the most important things in the universe at that particular moment in time and ought to be answered. Is it a BFD?? Only to the extent that it becomes somewhat thoughtless and interfers with our relationships, or the development of a relationship (or association if you like that term better) and we end up feeling badly, especially as we consider our thoughts and actions and the loss that we experience due to our actions. I may be 100% wrong, but I suspect you knew the answer to your question before you even asked. But since you did ask, "Did I breach etiquette?"--that is my observation, for whatever it is worth, which most likely isn't much.