It just seems... it's not really something I can relate to. That's all.
Oh good. After 4 pages of discussion the whole thing is a "matter of opinion." OK. My opinion is this was a troll and a waste of time.
s I was fortunate enough to buy to Copeland whistles (hi D and lo D) do long ago that he actually sent me 3 hi Ds to choose from and rebuilt the tuning with a different hole set up on body of the lo D. No waiting list, and no frustrations and they remain super whistles in most people's minds; including mine. I also own a couple of hammered dulcimers I did wait for. No problem. I knew the instruments and knew I wanted that sound. If our OP can't hear a difference that is the way he hears. Just don't beat on me because I do...
Am I a bit frustrated? Yes, I guess I am. We all hear differently and so react differently to different instruments. If we didn't there wouldn't be different instruments. Jerry Freeman does amazing things with his tweaking. Other mid priced makers do good things too. Even the lowly Susato is quite an achievement (though it is not my favorite sound). And, often fine instruments do things the others can't and folks learn to appreciate that. I certainly wouldn't swap my Bach trumpet for a cheaper one for exactly that reason.
And, I expect, supply and demand work more purely in the custom musical instrument world. Builders are often forced to raise their prices in an effort to keep their waiting lists under control. Sure some folks are buying name for the same reason some folks buy a BMW. But, many folks have decided that particular instrument will really work for them. So the prices rise. Go try to buy a Jeff Elliot guitar now. Huge waiting list and huge prices. But, you'd be hard put to find a better instrument. I heard one last year at a luthier's convention. It made the preceeding 6 to 8 thousand dollar instruments sound like junk.
In sum, different strokes for different folks, probably depending on how one hears (not how well...just how), how a given instrument responds for a particular player, and how our pocket books hold up. OK? Your opinion is yours. So is everyone else's theirs. So. lets get on to other things.
(climbing slowly and rather clumsily off of the soap box....)
I like Jerry's tweaked whistles very much. They are some of the best I've ever played. You would be misreading me completely if you thought I was speaking against these, or against mid-priced whistles, in general.
It is the whistles that cost hundreds of dollars that bother me. The ones people get on waiting lists for. It just seems... it's not really something I can relate to. That's all.
Not offhand. There's the standard p-rn to lichen, and I doubt any real swear words would go through, either. Since W-T-F stands for what the f, I'm not surprised!
cboody:
The problem with getting on a soap box is that other people will get on one too! Logically it makes sense that higher priced whistles should be higher quality, because that's how it works with almost all other instruments in the world. Unfortunately, whistles are a very unique case! A lot of very excellent musicians do not like so-called high-end whistles (which we could also call hand-made whistles) because of the fact that they too hear these differences in sound and playability, and simply don't like them. With a trumpet, the higher price you go, the better the quality of workmanship, the more responsive and fast the action of the pistons, the more responsive the instrument is, the better the sound. With a whistle, many of the hand-made ones that I've tried have a slower response or a worse sound (two examples anyway of problems I've encountered). It is of course a matter of opinion what you prefer, but the sound you get from a Burke, for instance, is not instantly better just because the whistle is more expensive. The only reason this discussion keeps going is because with whistles, uniquely, more expensive doesn't equal better.
The problem with the generalization above is that it has exceptions. There are hand-made whistles that I like (keep in mind one of my three go-to whistles is a Blackbird), and there are some that are "better" versions of Gens and Feadogs (although, unfortunately I've come across much more variability in the quality of these sorts of hand-made whistles than gens and feadogs, but that's true of all the hand-made makes I've tried).
I will just add that statements like this:
If our OP can't hear a difference that is the way he hears.
sort of miss the point I've made above. I know Walden. I know he can hear the difference, as can I. I won't speak for Walden, but I just don't like the differences I hear. I think they are faults, rather than benefits. But the only reason I keep responding is to try to combat the notion that with whistles "higher price" = "better whistle". It's just not true.
It is the whistles that cost hundreds of dollars that bother me. The ones people get on waiting lists for. It just seems... it's not really something I can relate to. That's all.
Walden, is it the idea of whistles with three-digit price tags that bothers you, or is it the whistles themselves, or the way they are sold...
I'm genuinely curious...do you know exactly what about this bothers you, and why?
Well, now that I've "cleared my throat" maybe I can clarify a few things about my concerns in a bit more rational manner.
1) My reference to how the OP hears was not meant in any way to be derogatory. Rather it was meant to underline what another said above, that we hear differently.
2) I certainly didn't mean to imply that price is the only determining factor in whistle quality. I can name some expensive trumpets that aren't worth much just as there are some expensive whistles that aren't worth much. But, I do feel that the good expensive instruments can be very fine indeed and should not be ignored. I've never run across anyone owning a Copeland that didn't recognize that quality. There are folks out there that don't like the Copeland sound, but in general they recognize the quality. I'd prefer not to talk about other builders for obvious reasons. One can like or dislike the sound of any instrument, but to reject all instruments when they are above some cost point seems out of line.
3) My main point is that this entire issue is just a matter of opinion. We aren't all going to agree. We need not. But we probably should just recognize that opinions will vary and let it go at that.
4) I too am curious if the OP's concern is the cost of the instruments or getting on waiting lists. I don't think that either concern is valid from my perspective, but I would be curious as to his concern and his reason for it.
I am not making a blanket statement against all over-priced whistles. I don't doubt that a good many of them are fine-playing instruments. They can only be judged individually. I don't think that having one will make a person a better player, or that an expert player needs one. We can say that it enables the craftsman to monitor for better quality, but there comes a point where it's more consumerism and elitism than about music.
Sorry to stick out like a sore thumb, but enough said: let's just be happy with our whistles, whichever they may be and just play the music all right? We don't make hay going on a probably endless discussion about low end vs. high end and then not practicing.. I feel attention is needed where it is needed..
Not so fast. I can't let this go by: the statement "I am not making a blanket statement against all over-priced whistles..." IS a blanket statement. It suggests that all high-end and quality hand-made whistles are over-priced. This attitude strikes me as a sort of reverse snobbery.
I still disagree with Walden's basic premise, though I partly understand where he's coming from.
I refer back to my previous contribution to this thread. I stuck with Gens despite frustrations at their limitations for many years because other instruments I met just didn't "do it" for me - Feadogs, Oaks etc. were inferior Gens, Clarkses were just ugh!, Sweet's old-style wooden whistles (I'm talking early 1980s) were horrible. A good Gen was the best thing available, but save at the top of it's range (upper 2nd & into 3rd 8ves), too quiet for unamplified ensemble use. That's all there was back then, except I got a brief go at a festival on a Swayne (and I don't think he's changed his design since either), but I couldn't have afforded one nor subsequently knew how one might have got hold of one for many years. In the intervening years the whole Low Whistle thing developed and the likes of Overton also ventured into high ones. I tried 'em and found them less to my taste and less serviceable than my old Gens. Susatos appeared and were extremely playable, louder and clearer and more reliable and versatile than Gens - the first things I ever met to be so, but I didn't like their recorder-reminiscent sound. I got given one, but only used it outdoors and for very loud sessions where my Gens' lower register would get lost. Dave Shaw's Clarke-type handmades were the next ones to appear and were better than Clarkes but still with a lot of the Clarke problems. (I of course discount from this history any American goings on because, apart from Sweet and Susato, we didn't see/hear/know about them this side of the pond until well into the 1990s.)
I suppose playing that Swayne in my early days in the music kinda spoiled my perceptions because it was all that a whistle should (IMO!) be and it became a subconscious yardstick. When eventually I acquired one (after meeting a few of them again after a long hiatus and having my recollections confirmed) it was indeed all that I remembered and wanted. I had in more recent times tried several other high end wooden whistles - Bleazey, Rose, specifically, maybe some others - and had been impressed but not blown away - not enough so to invest.
Since getting my Swayne I've continued to try other whistles at all opportunities - some of them for review here on C&F. I still haven't met anything to seriously rival the Swayne, though there are some of the big names I haven't had a chance to compare - Glenn Shultz and Grinter would be the most obvious. I've tried Burkes, Copelands, Syns, Reyburns..... none of them (some good IMO/for my playing style, others not-so-good) have come close to the Swayne save perhaps Willy Simmonds', Rose and Abell (interestingly all wood, but not mentioned because of that - the metal ones rarely tickle me right - Copelands come nearest).
Indubitably some of the mid and high range (price-wise) whistles are simply not worth the extra cost over a Gen. But some can offer things to a player that none of the base-line mass-produced cheapies (tweaked or not) can. They may happen to be aesthetically pleasing crafted objects (some are durn ugly!), they may happen to cost quite a lot of money (the most expensive are still extremely cheap in wider musical gear terms), but neither of those things are primary reasons to purchase them. I didn't wait for a Swayne solely because I couldn't afford or find one, but because I knew what one could do and other things I met could not and were not for me significantly better than a Gen to justify the cost.
I know this sounds a bit like an advert for Jon Swayne, but it isn't intended thus - I mean it as a history of personal experience. Other folk with different ideals in a whistle could tell similar tales substituting the name of their favoured maker. My main ideals are: it sounds like a whistle (not a recorder, a piccolo, something else) in tone character; it can be pushed (strong air-column support) without squeaking/breaking octaves/sounding harsh; obvious stuff (like tunability, good intonation, even response through its range), it will play readily into the lower 3rd 8ve; it is loud enough to compete in noisy acoustic contexts, to be audible both to player and listeners. Most of the cheapies will do a majority of those things, but they all fail on the volume point. Many expensive whistles I've tried fail on a good few of the other points (including basic ones) even if they pass the volume test.
As I said before, an old-style cheapie (Gen/Clarke etc.) simply will not serve for some of the things I use a whistle for (a Susato would) - and that's where I disagree with Walden. Of course, the majority of whistlers may never want to be able to hold their own acoustically in big bands/large venues - fair enough. However, I'd add that the whistle that serves for those purposes (admittedly maybe not the original "natural habitat" expected contexts for a lowly whistle) also serves better in a "normal" sesh context and is more satisfying for home solo use......
Horses for courses, maybe. If my old Gen was loud enough, I'd probably never have looked beyond it.......
Last edited by jemtheflute on Tue May 18, 2010 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
And for those of you interested, Jon Swayne will be a vendor at the Pipers Gathering in Killington, VT this summer - August 13-16. See www.pipersgathering.org/index.shtml for more details.
Best wishes.
Steve
Last edited by Steve Bliven on Tue May 18, 2010 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Live your life so that, if it was a book, Florida would ban it.
I think about the only real conclusion I could draw from this thread is that there is no one whistle that is to every whistler's taste. (And I already knew that...)
I understand different people preferring different instruments, each for their own reasons. All musicians are familiar with that, I think.
What I don't understand is the need that some people feel to have to belittle this kind of instrument or that kind... There is a kind of elitism that exists on both ends, you have your players who play only $10 whistles and think that anything over x amount of money is just by definition worthless...then you have your players who play expensive whistles and think that cheap whistles are junk...
For myself, I cheerfully play many different whistles, of many different kinds.
Each must find their own way, but do we really need all of the "______ is junk" type comments? Do they really add anything to the discussion?
Walden wrote:I am not making a blanket statement against all over-priced whistles. I don't doubt that a good many of them are fine-playing instruments. They can only be judged individually. I don't think that having one will make a person a better player, or that an expert player needs one. We can say that it enables the craftsman to monitor for better quality, but there comes a point where it's more consumerism and elitism than about music.
Ok, tried to stay above the fray, but the vino is kicking in after a wonderful dinner. Whistles that are "over-priced" are whistles that do not provide good value and/or do not make the buyer/user satisfied. Anyone who believes that a good whistle makes a good player is just plain misled. That said, I don't get the beef with the likes of Copeland, Abell, O'Riordan, etc. nor with respect to those who both love to play/listen and collect these instruments from these fine makers. Frankly, I guess I just don't get the point of this entire discussion.
I drive a Subaru because of the value and the stress on basic drive train, AWD, suspension as opposed to other amenities - best bang for the buck and has all that I need. However, I don't care and do understand that there are those who prefer other more expensive vehicles and can afford it and appreciate them for a variety of reasons.
Oh, good night.
Philo
"This is this; this ain't something else. This is this." - Robert DeNiro, "The Deer Hunter," 1978.
