Venting high e

[pflipp]

Hi all,

I believe it is a common problem that the high 'e' may be hard to pronounce. At least this seems true on my "Frenchie", and also on my Dixon 1-piece.

I've been looking for a way to make this note more reliable. I believe Jem would say that "it's all in the venting", so I tried that. Eventually I ended up lifting my left index finger, like with high 'd' -- but then only very slightly. This takes a little fiddling to get right, but once there, it makes the 'e' much more reliable.

I had never heard of this one, so I am curious to other people's experiences with venting high 'e'.

[I.D.10-t]

Are you talking about something like DXOOOX*, or DXXXXO?

*D=half hole, X=closed, O=open

[Gabriel]

Do you mean middle e or high e? I don't vent middle e, i.e. second register e. I never did and it isn't necessary once one has learned how to play that note. To me, "high e" refers to third octave e, which I play by fingering XXOXXO, or, if the passage is slow, XXO'XXO, i.e. with the G# key open (=venting), which makes it easier to get and better in tune.

[I.D.10-t]

An exercise that might be of interest for the Dixon 1-piece would be to use your embouchure to play D d a d' using the harmonics to hit the a. I think this should work on a cylindrical flute no matter the size.

[Denny]

as long as it is D sized ...

[jemtheflute]

Yes, which E do you mean? If 2nd 8ve, no, venting L1 won't help in the slightest - in fact is likely to prevent you sounding the note at all. However, if you have an Eb key (as all proper flutes have! ) you probably should vent that - certainly for bottom octave E, though on some flutes it can make the 2nd 8ve one go sharper than you want; opening it will of course sharpen up a flat E (which most fundamental Es are and many 2nd 8ve ones) and will also make the note much clearer (because the E tone-hole which is covered by R3 is so small and up-tube of its acoustically correct position).

If you do mean 3rd 8ve E, that's a whole other issue - it is notoriously the worst note on the flute, including the modern Bohm flute. It also varies a good deal from flute to flute and much depends on whether you actually have an Eb key. Tell us if you do mean the 3rd E and what the specs of your flutes are (OK, I know about the Dixon) and maybe I can give some specific advice........

[pflipp]

Right, I mean middle E. I don't get to do third E's a lot.

DXX XXO . I'm venting only a tiny bit, like a leaky finger placement. Any more would indeed destroy the tone.

On second examination, the issue is mainly with my French flute. On that, it really can make the difference between a lot of noise, and an immediately speaking middle E.

I do have a confession to make, though: I forgot about venting the D# key. That also makes a significant difference
Still, on quick, fluid transitions between middle D and E, that is relatively hard to finger, and "leaking" the sixth hole can be a lifesaver for me; even more so on slides.

[jemtheflute]

OK, now we know more clearly what we are looking at. Hum. I can't say I've ever come across quite the difficulty you describe, mind! - and you say you're having it on both flutes?

First, I'm baffled as to the leaking of L1 being any kind of help - though empirically you are obviously finding it so....... And it is definitely not even suggested as something off-the-wall but potentially helpful in any fingering chart or discussion of fingerings of simple system flutes I have ever read. That middle E really ought not to be such a problem - it should just be there, especially if you vent the Eb key (yes, I agree it is awkward changing from a D), so I am wondering (since you have it on two different flutes) whether your problem is an issue of embouchure technique (more than anything else). With the keyed French flute, I assume you have done a thorough examination for any leaks or blockages, and those can't be the case on the Dixon.

The leaking of L1 should not, so far as I understand the science, help to form the note as it is not in the correct place to vent the air column at the node forced by overblowing. Such venting does not have to be bang on half the relevant sounding length (which is from the centre of the embouchure to the centre of the first open tone-hole discounting the node-vent) - close to it will do, but I think it needs to be closer than the inch or so away that the C# tone-hole (L1) is from the centre of the E air-column - L1 is in near enough the right place for D, but not for E. (BTW, we usually count tone-holes from the high end, in the order that one closes them to play a descending scale, so L1 would be 1 and R3 would be 6.)

No, the more I think about it, the more I suspect the real problem is with your overblowing technique - you probably are not sufficiently nor quickly enough reducing the size of your embouchure aperture to increase the pressure and speed up the airstream, nor maybe adjusting your aim correctly. I suggest some intensive slurred octave practice (with the normal fingering of E in both octaves), slowly at first and over the whole scale, concentrating on not blowing harder from the lungs but compressing the embouchure and changing the angle you blow at. When you get that control, I think this problem will go away. IMO you are wasting your time fussing with unorthodox leak fingerings on a note that should work OK, and probably learning something you will have to unlearn later.

[Terry McGee]

The leaking of L1 should not, so far as I understand the science, help to form the note as it is not in the correct place to vent the air column at the node forced by overblowing. Such venting does not have to be bang on half the relevant sounding length (which is from the centre of the embouchure to the centre of the first open tone-hole discounting the node-vent) - close to it will do, but I think it needs to be closer than the inch or so away that the C# tone-hole (L1) is from the centre of the E air-column - L1 is in near enough the right place for D, but not for E.

You can try this yourself and will probably find that it will work. Finger and blow low E (E4), and then introduce the smallest amount of leakage via L1 you can. The note will either jump up to middle E (E5), or fall silent (apart from the rush of air). At that point a little increase in push will cause E5 to sound. Increase the leakage any more and the E5 will be driven sharp and then fail.

The reason why it works is that opening the vent hole (L1) makes low D unviable, leaving middle D the lowest viable harmonic. If you finger E and introduce just a little leakage, you can find a point that will kill off low E, but not maim middle E too much.

But, even with the explanation and experiment that shows it's possible, I'm firmly with Jem - it shouldn't be necessary. I assume you can get notes above middle E without trouble - if not, the issue is with your embouchure and a little work there will quickly bring dividends. If the problem is limited to one note on one flute, it suggests an issue with the flute. I can't immediately think of an issue that would cause E5 to be harder to get than E4 though! I'd certainly check all the usuals - stopper position, cracks, leaky pads etc, and ideally get an experienced player to comment on it.

Terry

[Denny]

'course it works


however, we ain't takin' recorders here

[jemtheflute]

Thanks Terry, tried it and right you are. It also works with L2 and even L3 if you're very ginger with it. Now I'm waiting for (a certain) someone to suggest drilling octave vent holes for E!

[Terry McGee]

Well, if you have a flute with any high trill keys, you already have some potentially useful additional vent keys. As long as you can operate them without lifting other necessary fingers!

For those with 8-key flutes, you can also play low C but vent with L2 for an alternative fingering for middle C. Or play low C# and vent with either L1 or the C key.

Denny's reminder about the recorder is a good one; it illustrates how far a vent hole can be away from the midpoint providing you only leak it.

Terry

[Gabriel]

For the record: if I vent middle e on my flute with L1, it first goes sharp and jumps to a slightly flat high c afterwards. Removing L1 makes a fairly true high c come out that is quite stable, but tends to get sharp if strained. That suddenly makes playing the B part of the Moving Cloud dead easy, though.

[pflipp]

Thank you all for your comments, this has been a much interesting discussion!

Your reports on applying this technique are very close to my results: leaking a bit forces a low E to a middle E, leaking more bends the note up, and completely opening L1 yields a 'C'.

Also, I agree completely that the problem is specific to one flute, i.e. a "quirk". I initially took the Dixon up for compare, and although the techique worked on it, on second examination, the necessity just wasn't there: the middle E pronounces just fine. That seems to be exactly as per your reports.

Indeed the French flute may leak a little on some of the pads, as suction tests yield unequal results over different parts of the flute. Nothing too dramatic though, but something to keep in mind if I have an opportunity for maintenance.

[sacrenouille]

On my M&E I can play high E like this : XXO OXO, then high F# : XOX XOX and high G : XOX OOO.

The high E is a little bit flat, probably DXO OXO would help but I didn't try.