Hello from a beginner + burning question...

[Mockingbird]

I'd love to witness the mockingbird experiment. I love whistling to mockingbirds (just whistle-whistling, I mean).

So, I've got a simple tune down pat (Dawning of the Day). Where would I find ornamentation ideas? I've been noodling around with it, but naturally it doesn't sound very good...

[StevieJ]

So, I've got a simple tune down pat (Dawning of the Day). Where would I find ornamentation ideas? I've been noodling around with it, but naturally it doesn't sound very good...

A tune like that doesn't want much in the way of ornamentation. IMO, to make it sound good. What it needs is confident playing, steady rhythm, and a nice tone. Beyond that, you can a few little cuts and taps (à la Brother Steve in South Wind, what MTG probably rightly thinks of as not taps but hammer-ons or pull-offs or whatever), the odd slurred triplet (F#GF# instead of a long F# for example), the occasional slide into a note (don't overdo) and Bob's yer uncle

In a simple tune like that, you can add interest by lengthening or shortening notes, too. Lots of series of three quarter notes, so sometimes play a quarter note followed by a dotted quarter followed by an eighth note, for example. Cut the odd note short and leave a little rest after it, too.

Keep on noodling, find out what sounds good to you and run with it. The best way to make a tune sound good to others is to enjoy how it sounds to you.

[cavefish]

So, I've got a simple tune down pat (Dawning of the Day). Where would I find ornamentation ideas? I've been noodling around with it, but naturally it doesn't sound very good...

this one is pretting boring to me any way, try" irish washer woman" paddy fahey. or Gillians apples---------- you can go simple to nuts on those, for ornamentations------ toot away sweetness

[MTGuru]

cavefish, since you seem intent on contradicting the advice from posters like Brother Steve and myself, I think it's time for you to post some samples of your whistle playing, so we can all hear the results of your random discovery procedure, MIDI ornaments, and tune choices. Any one of the 3 tunes you mentioned would do nicely. If you need help posting the clips, just ask. Then Mockingbird and others can judge for themselves.

[cavefish]

Calm down,
i have never cut down yours or anyones playing----- it appears you chopped me , i have only given advice----this is a topic board--- as far as my playing goes i have just started up again but can still do it fine, and i know where to put the ornaments, but the breathing i would need some work again -------- is it for your pride and arrogance that you would like to compete or cut me down------- i think i have most helpfull in certain areas ,but it appears you want All the attention-------------as far as my clip - there are on clips and snips and whistle this------- you can find them and chop them up like you intend----------as far a quoteing Mockingbird she has PMed me and thanked me for the advice--------------i am just contributing ,but i guess YOU FEEL i am stepping on your toes----- sorry your confidense level is so Low---and that you feel you need to have all the answers---- i thought you were better than that, my mistake

[MTGuru]

Yes, just as I thought.

It is not about competition or ego or grains of salt. It is about using the Chiffboard to give bad advice or example to beginners, with nothing to back it up. Bad enough, and poorly written to boot, that a moderator feels compelled to step in. And if you can't tell the difference - then that's part of the problem, isn't it?

I've also removed your post's spurious religious content.

[MTGuru]

Just adding, for others' benefit ...

There's nothing wrong with experimenting with ornamentation based on good foundations, or with writing it down as a personal memory aid in ABC or otherwise. But accidental discovery in learning ornaments is like babbling or slips of the tongue in learning a language. It's not pedagogically sound.

As for MIDI ... It may be OK for checking the raw outline of a tune. But ornament is a matter of subtle timing, finger movement on and off the holes, and interaction with the exact response of your whistle in terms of chiff and chirp transients, timbre, breath, etc. And at the level of milliseconds - a typical cut or tap is on the order of 60 ms, and transients less than that. I've yet to hear a MIDI whistle sample capable of reproducing those essential qualities. So speeding up a MIDI-rendered ornament is simply not a useful predictor, and more likely to be misleading.

The issue of "rules" is a red herring. Every musical system has "rules" - its shared organizing principles, including Irish trad. ITM is not Scottish contest piping. But when adjudicating All-Ireland, the judges are listening for ... something (yes, this example is overly narrow). Bill Ochs' book isn't blank. There's plenty of room for flexibility and creativity in trad playing and ornament. But "express yourself" is not the place to start, unless heavily qualified. And there was no qualification here.

Anyway, perfectly calm ...

[StevieJ]

Cripes, I should get out more. All this excitement and me blissfully unaware of it.

Back on topic I have just reread my above post and want to make a correction

In a simple tune like that, you can add interest by lengthening or shortening notes, too. Lots of series of three quarter notes, so sometimes play a quarter note followed by a dotted quarter followed by an eighth note, for example. Cut the odd note short and leave a little rest after it, too.

The bit in bold is arse-backwards and will sound most peculiar in this tune. What I wanted to describe was dotted-quarter + eighth + quarter (or dotted crotchet + quaver + crotchet). Sorry.

MB, I think you want a few more tunes like this under your belt before you start worrying about how to use ornamentation in Gillan's Apples. Good luck and let us know when you're ready

[cavefish]

well as you have SEEn many people have differant ways of learning, and not all agree--------- but in the end it is a wonderfull road to be on and music is an expression of ones self ------- so feel good

[swizzlestick]

MTGuru, thanks for doing your second post. It clarifies your logic. And it helps those readers that don't know ITM (or your musical background) understand why this might reach the level of moderator intervention.

Whistles can be a joy at any level and experimenting is part of the fun. However, much of the focus in this forum is on traditional technique and beginners need to know what path they are taking.

[Mockingbird]

Thanks, all! I'll focus on varying the length of notes, then, in Dawning of the Day. I've also been working for some time on Britches Full of Stitches, Saddle the Pony, and The South Wind. I assume they are good beginner's tunes, having appeared on Bro. Steve's site--which, incidentally, was *so* helpful in explaining exactly how the ornaments are to be played.

[david_h]

I'll focus on varying the length of notes, then, in Dawning of the Day.

Luke Kelly's singing of Raglan Road may give some ideas. This is my favourite: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kBndHNJoC0k

[cavefish]

Thanks, all! I'll focus on varying the length of notes, then, in Dawning of the Day. I've also been working for some time on Britches Full of Stitches, Saddle the Pony, and The South Wind. I assume they are good beginner's tunes, having appeared on Bro. Steve's site--which, incidentally, was *so* helpful in explaining exactly how the ornaments are to be played.

if you really like dawning of the day Vinnie kilduff does a great version

[MTGuru]

Kilduff

[fearfaoin]

Kilduff

I'd.... rather not...