Hello from a beginner + burning question...

[Mockingbird]

I'm a person taking up the tin whistle rather late in the game--in my forties and still in the midst of rearing seven children. In fact, we homeschool, and my children were tutored in some basic music theory this past year on tin whistle, which is what inspired me to try it myself.

I have some basic familiarity with musical notation (that is, I can pick out a tune with sheet music...slowly), and I've made some half-hearted attempts at the recorder and guitar in the past. I'm a lover of traditional music and have been listening since I first stumbled across a Thistle and Shamrock program some twenty years ago. It seemed the tin whistle might be simple enough for someone like me to master eventually. I have always wanted to be able to play my heart out on some sort of instrument!

I'm using my children's cheapie "Mel Bay by Clarke" D whistles right now in hope that I might improve to the point of justifying a purchase of my own whistle.

I've taken Ryan Duns' course on YouTube, and have poked around Brother Steve's tin whistle pages trying some of the tunes and working on ornamentation. I probably started a good five or six months ago, but as you might imagine, practice sessions are not easy to come by, so I'm in that awkward spot of not being quite up to speed on *any* tune yet. Read the thread "Beginners Go Too Fast," and appreciated the advice there to use a metronome and some tips on frequency of practice. I'm sure there are many other "beginner" threads available here that I just haven't come across yet. Perhaps someone can point me to good ones...

My burning question is...most of the lessons I've encountered online make a big jump from teaching ornamentation to "fast" (for me, probably slow for the teacher) versions of tunes incorporating them. How do I get to the point where I just naturally know where to place ornamentation? What I wish I could do is take a tune played by a master teacher, slow it down, and learn it piece by piece *with* ornamentation intact. Not exactly "making it my own," but I don't know where to place taps, cuts, rolls, etc. on my own.

Also, how long do I give it before I figure I'm just hopeless and not a musician? I do really enjoy practicing, but I'd love to know there is a mastery stage. How long does that typically take, with daily practice?

[fearfaoin]

If you haven't already you should check out
board member eskin's whistle videos. He does
the tunes very slowly with ornamentation and
then runs them fast so you can hear how they
sound at speed.
http://www.tradlessons.com/?cat=27

Also, if you have a recording that you wish to
practice to, you can slow it down using many
programs:
The Amazing Slow Downer
Audacity
Best Practice
Or you can just do it with Windows Media Player

And don't worry, the more you listen to good
whistlers, the more you get an instinct of how
ornamentation should be used. It's like learning
a language, sort of.

[walrii]

Also, how long do I give it before I figure I'm just hopeless and not a musician?

You were a musician when you played your first tune.

I'd love to know there is a mastery stage.

A master is a student who has been at it while.

How long does that typically take, with daily practice?

To master the next phrase? A few minutes.
To master "all of it"? Forever.
Go now, Grasshopper and practice your whistle.

[StevieJ]

How do I get to the point where I just naturally know where to place ornamentation? ... but I don't know where to place taps, cuts, rolls, etc. on my own.

How does a typical American kid know when to say "OMG", "like" and "whatever"?

How would a kid arriving in America speaking another language and wishing to talk like American kids figure out where to interject these expressions?

For you, as someone learning a new musical language, in a musical environment you didn't grow up in, the process is similar. Nobody is going to give a kid rules as to where to say "like" etc.

You just have to... listen and pay attention, not worry too much about it, don't be in a big hurry, and let it come naturally.

As for mastery... When you think you have achieved mastery is when you start becoming obnoxious, so don't be in too much of a hurry to get there either.

[RonKiley]

One day you will be playing and say wait what did I just do. As you listen the ornaments will just subliminally plant themselves. How long will that take maybe a month, maybe 5 years but it will happen. Don't worry about playing fast. Slow things down as suggested and learn to play at the slower speed. Speed comes with practice. Many who play lightning fast do not play in correct rhythm or timing. Just relax and enjoy.

[talasiga]

.......
As for mastery... When you think you have achieved mastery is when you start becoming obnoxious, so don't be in too much of a hurry to get there either.

mystery surpasses mastery
she enchants the slow air,
teases dance tunes

[jemtheflute]

.......
As for mastery... When you think you have achieved mastery is when you start becoming obnoxious, so don't be in too much of a hurry to get there either.

mystery surpasses mastery
she enchants the slow air,
teases dance tunes

Oh talasiga, you alliterative old hack you.

[cavefish]

the Clarkes tin whistle book By Bill Ochs is the best---it is a extensive training guide, for reading music,playing it and ornamentation----plus----- it comes with a CD and show everything one needs to get rolling----it is a "spoonfeeders" dream------- then , its just practice and listening to others, getting ideas and such- as far as ornamentation goes, it just happens---------it is an exciting adventure---i am 48 and started 15 years ago
off and on, i have 4 kids myself--------not one of them wants to play either, what a bummer------ maybe the 5 year old someday

i was hoping one would take off so I could get a Bodhran and jam with them----------oh well good luck


http://cgi.ebay.com/Bill-Ochs-Clarke-Ti ... 985wt_1167



I dont if this one has the CD though-but you get now

[Mick Down Under]

How does a typical American kid know when to say "OMG", "like" and "whatever"?

And how do you pronounce something 'OMG'?! OmGah, OoMuG...

How would a kid arriving in America speaking another language and wishing to talk like American kids figure out where to interject these expressions?

Why would anyone want to talk like an American child?! Really?! I like the sound of Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Australian chidren. They have a pleasant lilt in they're speech.

For you, as someone learning a new musical language, in a musical environment you didn't grow up in, the process is similar. Nobody is going to give a kid rules as to where to say "like" etc.

Pretty much insert an ornament whenever you need to fill a normal persons silent spell in a conversation, that is usually used for further thought, on what next should follow on from the previous spoken word. That part of the conversation which an idiot will insert a word such as 'Like' or a non word such as 'Um'. Think ornament instead.

You just have to... listen and pay attention, not worry too much about it, don't be in a big hurry, and let it come naturally.

Hear hear...Quite literally too.

As for mastery... When you think you have achieved mastery is when you start becoming obnoxious, so don't be in too much of a hurry to get there either.

To mastery or obnoxious?! Perhaps the mastery of being obnoxious Sorry, just having some fun. No offence meant.


Mick

[jim stone]

Also Patience, and then Patience, and then Patience....

[electricmime]

I'm a beginner as well. I've been approaching ornamentation in several ways. The first way is to avoid it as much as possible. No tonguing, and only using a cut or a tap when necessary between repeated notes. I find that when learning, its tempting to use a bit of ornamentation (particularly tonguing) to cover up sloppy fingering. I am finding that ornamentation works best when you can play crisp in the first place. Otherwise, it just sounds like you messed up.

When I am in a different practice mode, I will take a short phrase and systematically work through some ornamentation... vibrato on a held note, a slide at different spots in a run, or cut when a run is peaking high and coming back down. I'll even try some bagpipe ornamentation (throws and doublings), just to see how I like it. This is the opposite side, where I'm trying to over ornament in as many ways as I can think of. I'll make a little game of it: How many cuts can I fit in to this phrase? What does it sound like if I use a different cut or tap as my required ornamentation? I'll also try to use breathing to articulate. I have a problem of trying to play 8 bars on one breath, then spending two beats sucking in air and losing the rhythm when the sound stops for too long, even though my fingers don't stop.. works fine on bagpipe, not so much on whistle. I find that actively looking for spots to breathe really helps my flow.

Finally, I'll just play the piece for the fun of it, and in these cases I'm finding certain bits of ornamentation from my ornamentation practice just want to slip in. In general, its the airs that tend to want ornamentation, while the reels like something more spartan and crisp.

I also do the same thing with rhythm... try to play the eighth notes of a reel like clockwork, then try to play them more like a triplet or dotted rhythm. I actually try to play somewhere in the middle when I'm playing for fun, and different phrases will get different levels of bounce, depending on what feels right at the moment. I've practiced them both ways, so feel more freedom.

I feel that being aware of the extremes helps me find that comfortable middle, and I'll sometimes find something fun that I never would have found by myself otherwise.

[Denny]

And how do you pronounce something 'OMG'?! OmGah, OoMuG...

1st ya gotta go with a southern US accent
Oh Maa Gawd (that's Maa about half way between Ma and My while being drug out a ways)

or Valley Girl.....

[Mick Down Under]

[talasiga]

........
Oh talasiga, you alliterative old hack you.

so caught up
discerning the alliteration
that he missed the pun

[cavefish]

puting aside all the non needed joking and , hijackings-------- try the Clarkes tin Whistle book , its a good deal