Capos & Cheating

[mutepointe]

OK, I saw a thread that some folks think using capos is cheating. I've run across these people before. Luckily, in small numbers. I'd like to hear what you folks have to say about this, you folks have an opinion about everything. I find bass players are most hardcore about not using capos. Is this just my experience or true to the whole bunch? What I find the most annoying is people who refuse to use a capo and then can't play the song in the key the music is actually written or can't easily transpose to a key in which a song needs to be played becase of a vocalist or some other condition that confirms that they are not the center of the universe. Then I'm stuck quickly handwriting the transposition for them because they've never quite figured out how to transpose. Do they think this makes them look more talented and cool?

Also, I happen to like the different sound when I use a capo on my guitar.

[brewerpaul]

As far as I'm concerned, if it works it's not cheating. If you like the sound of the G,C,D7 chords but need to sing in A or B, why not capo up rather than suffer with some weird and difficult inversions? To each his/her own.
BTW-- it's relatively easy for Bass players to be snooty about capos since they play single notes more than chords (usually) so it's easy to play wherever on the neck you want.

[Thomaston]

IMHO it's a perfectly acceptable tool in a musician's arsenal, and I don't get the hate for it at all. What I really don't get are the anti-capo folks that like using alternate tunings, since it's basically the same thing.

[MTGuru]

It's partly a holdover from the classical guitar world, where capos were (and still are) frowned on - but the instrument's repertoire takes that into account. Also, perhaps, because some early capos could turn your guitar neck into firewood pretty quickly.

I think Paul and mute's last sentence have it about right. The capo is really at least as much about timbre and voicings as just changing keys, given the very real limitations of the guitar's fingerboard, and the expectations of folk voicing.

Bass guitar is a different story entirely. You're playing mostly melodic single lines in either open position or fully closed positions, and for that you don't need a capo at all. For the same reason, you don't see jazz or rock guitarists using capos either for lead playing. And their approach to chord playing is very different from folk guitar. Think Ted Greene's Chord Chemistry, or Power Chords for Dummies, respectively.

Sure, I can play guitar accompaniment in any key without a capo if I want. And I mean, like, D#minor. But if you're barring chords all over the neck, what's the point? It's literally the wrong technique for that music, and masochistic to boot. So any folk strummers who refuse to use a capo from some misbegotten idea that it's wrong are themselves wrong, and just betraying their own ignorance.

Yes, relying on a capo instead of learning your way around the instrument can be a crutch. Everyone is guilty sometimes (raises hand), because, like, guitar is complicated. But not using a capo and not knowing your way around - which is what it sounds like mutepoint is describing - is just idiotic, and bad musicianship.

And I realize there are some 3-chord players who have made great contributions to folk music. But they weren't usually in the position of taking responsibility to play whatever arranged charts were dropped in front of them.

I've actually never heard of alternate tuners being anti-capo. In fact, some like me are occasionally into partial capos and multiple capos. Alternate tunings are usually about favoring certain voicings and resonances in particular keys, at the expense of others. So capoing to move those strengths and weaknesses to a different pitch when you need to is an integral part of the technique, not a fault.

[Nanohedron]

The capo is really at least as much about timbre and voicings as just changing keys, given the very real limitations of the guitar's fingerboard, and the expectations of folk voicing.

But if you're barring chords all over the neck, what's the point? It's literally the wrong technique for that music, and masochistic to boot.

The two snippets above hit the heart of the matter for me.

For all practical purposes, I'm not a melody player on my gizmo. If I were, there'd be no point to using a capo that I can think of. While in chord-based playing the tuning one uses can be an enticing factor in whether to capo or not capo - for some tunings are less good to go for any key you wish - I admit I still try first to go without the capo just to test my musicanship, but, more importantly, to see if the voicing is attractive so. But to go capoless just on matter of unbending principle based on a received convention is a stiff-necked attitude and and in my estimation actually just as "lazy" as using the capo, being potentially lazy in the sense of not taking responsiblity for one's sound not only in itself but in relation to the whole as well. Just because one can go capoless, it doesn't mean that the result will sound good without fail. To me, that counts. Whether I capo or not, I am not in any wise let off the hook when it comes to owning my responsibility for the sound I contribute. Moreover, at times my fellow musicians will vote for the capo on the basis of the sound and voicing. That also counts. It's not always about me - surprise, surprise.

Here's an example from my own situation. There's a fiddler I play with from time to time who will in the course of a set switch out of the blue to "nonstandard" keys like Bb, F#, F, C, and major/minor/mixolaneous, what have you. When it's in the course of a set and spontaneous, so long as I am familiar with the tune I just keep going and don't pause to capo, for personally I find stopping to capo when the tune's in full flight to be a jarring and unattractive habit, for the most part. But I'll tell you this: while acceptable enough if you're not too picky, without the capo those keys in my tuning sound honestly kinda crappy, or at least unsatisfying, when all's said and done. So, we'll do some sets in dedicated key groupings (C/G, Bb/F# and the like) specifically with using the capo for its merits in mind. He'll even ask me to capo as high as the 7th fret just because he likes the sound at times. You can't get effects, voicings, exactly like that without the capo.

There's always a time and place for it, I think, and singers in particular benefit from its use.

[Rob Sharer]

Just for the record:

After thousands of hours in the hot seat, I can accompany in any key without the capo. Eb's a bit of a hoor, but it's thankfully rare outside of Eb sessions.

That said, I use the capo fairly frequently, mostly to break the monotony both for myself and the listener. I used to play whole gigs with the capo either on the 5th or the seventh fret, mostly with one or two folks in a quiet setting. That gave me all the standard keys in familiar shapes, even if not the standard ones for the keys in question (ex. playing in D with A fingerings, capo at the 5th fret), with no Godzilla chords to trample the delicate Flowers of the Burren.


Cheating? Who gives a fiddler's?



Rob

[fearfaoin]

Yeah, I'm with most of the opinions here.
Accompanying in D is easy enough, but
sometimes I might accompany a D tune
with a C progression, capo II. It gives
me different options for bass notes/runs.
It has a different sound entirely. There
are interesting voicings using open strings
when the F shape is the IV than when the
G shape is the IV chord.

Many people who say a capo is cheating
also use power chords, and therefore must
be irony deficient. It's like saying drop-D is
cheating... it shows a profound lack of
understanding.

[chrisoff]

It's not cheating, you can't cheat. Do whatever you can to make the sound you want come out of the guitar.

[mutepointe]

I'm glad I asked this question. I learned a lot. I'll behave myself the next time I run across one of these folks but I will have words to say what I think.

[Thomaston]

Quick clarification to MTGuru: I've only run across a couple of people (online, not in person) that were anti-capo but used alternate tunings. One was a DADGAD guitarist and one was a bouzouki player that alternated between GDAE and GDAD. I suppose that with the prevalence of these tunings in ITM that one could make the argument that they could be considered standard tuning at this point. But that's another thread for another day.

[Steve L]

People who think using a capo is cheating are boobs. Who cares what boobs think? There are styles of playing where the open strings, hammer ons, pull offs, etc are essential and unachievable by any other means. Go to a Tony McManus concert and see if you come away with the sense of having witnessed a musical weakling. It's a tool and should be seen as one. It also requires a certain degree of fretboard and transpositional knowledge to employ.

[CelticHarpie]

I have tiny hands and the only way I can play in some keys on the guitar is by using a capo. So perhaps I'm cheating Mother Nature as surely someone with hands as small as mine was never meant to play guitar.

[Ptarmigan]

Hey, if it works for you, go for it ...... & to hell with the begrudgers!

... life really is far too short to worry about them!

Cheers
Dick

[pipersgrip]

I am no expert at all with the guitar, but I have seen plenty of professionals use capos. It is kind of like the people saying piper's grip on a flute is cheating. If it works, it works.

[buddhu]

Andy Irvine and Donal Lunny "cheat" all the time.

And here's a picture of Paul Brady "cheating".

http://lovepeace.org/vos/photo/06photos ... lt6318.jpg



If Brady says it's ok, then it's ok.