Just intonation whistles - how?

[hans]

Fuzziness and bad intonation may be charming in ensemble play, but not if you play solo.
I know in playing solo whistle I automatically tend to play in just intonation.
And as a whistle maker it is not just an academic question, but has practical implications.
You could do a simple test and check the fifths to various notes on the whistle:
D - A, E - B, G - D, A - E, B - F#.

[highland-piper]

If all your fifths are pure then you have (by definition) pythagorean tuning.

But most people can't tell if the fifths are pure without a reference -- that's why fiddlers (and even the very best violinists) always tune strings in pairs.

[fiddlerwill]

Its not just the drones I hasten to add. When we talk about notes scales and modes, they are always discussed in relation to other notes, . If you take an individual note, , its just a sound , its only if you view it in relation to other notes present or past/future or a conceptual framework such as ET that the notes become meaningful, or not as the case maybe!

Chords built up of perfect intervals are wonderfully harmonious. I know from experience that its quite simple to play a tune on an instrument and sound grand, but if those notes are stacked upon each other in a chord then all these fine issues of intonation become Glaringly apparent.
Music is understood by the brain in relation to the minds memory of music. The more you listen, the more you hear/understand.

[hans]

If all your fifths are pure then you have (by definition) pythagorean tuning.

But most people can't tell if the fifths are pure without a reference -- that's why fiddlers (and even the very best violinists) always tune strings in pairs.

I did not mean that all fifths should be pure. That won't work. See this comparison between Pythagorean, Indian and Western Just Major:

Code: Select all

I  II  III IV   V  VI  VII  VIII
D   E  F#   G   A   B   C#  D'  D-major scale example
0  +4  +8  -2  +2  +6  +10  0   Pythagorean (pure fifths) Tuning  
0  +4 -14  -2  +2  +6  -12  0   Indian JT major 
0  +4 -14  -2  +2 -16  -12  0   Western JT major 
in approximate cents from ET tuning

A pure fifth is 3/2 ratio, or about 702 cents (700+2 cents = 7 ET semi-tones plus 2 cents).
With the Indian JT major we get these pure fifths:
D-A, E-B, F#-C#, G-D, A-E, but not B-F#, which causes a problem with Aeolian.
F# and C# are both flat against ET, and making them sharp as in Pyhagorean tuning won't work musically.
With the Western JT major we get these pure fifths:
D-A, F#-C#, G-D, A-E, B-F#, but not E-B, which causes a problem with Dorian.

Adding a Cnat of 16/9 (appr. -4 cents) will add another pure fifth: C-G.

So how should the Sixth be tuned? +6 or -16 cents, or a compromise, like -5 cents, which will neither give pure fifths for Dorian nor for Aeolian, but will make it perhaps easier to bend either way (and will be a compromise tuning, not a just tuning)?

[david_h]

You OK out there Ben ?

[Steve Bliven]

Hey, I apologized after starting the last go-round on this topic....

Best wishes.

Steve

[MTGuru]

Yes, please. Enough.

[hans]

Why?

[Steve Bliven]

For one thing, your face has transmogrified into a mandala....

Best wishes.

Steve

[hans]

Don't be deceived!

[Steve Bliven]

Oh no !!! Not the goat thing again.....

[Isn't there a Smilie for a dead horse ??]

Best wishes.

Steve

[hans]

[highland-piper]

Its not just the drones I hasten to add. When we talk about notes scales and modes, they are always discussed in relation to other notes, . If you take an individual note, , its just a sound , its only if you view it in relation to other notes present or past/future or a conceptual framework such as ET that the notes become meaningful, or not as the case maybe!

Not exactly -- most musical instruments don't play pure frequencies. Whenever you play a note on an instrument -- pretty much any instrument -- you're playing a chord. Different instruments have more or less harmonic content, and more in various places. Bagpipes and fiddles have a lot of harmonic content. Flute and whistle not nearly as much. With fiddle you can alter the harmonic content through the selection of strings, bows, and instrument set up. You can also change it while playing through the bowing (closer or further from the bridge, etc). On Highland bagpipes a single tenor drone has such prominent harmonics that people with discerning ears can be tricked into thinking that there is actually more than one tone.

There is a harmonic series built into each note we play, so if your ears hear that harmonic content you will tend to want to play your notes in tune with it. If you lay out all the different harmonics of all the different notes in a major scale (considering only the melody line), there is more than one solution to the "problem" of playing "in tune." But ET is not one of them...

[highland-piper]

I did not mean that all fifths should be pure. That won't work. See this comparison between Pythagorean, Indian and Western Just Major:

Pythagorean won't work for what?

[talasiga]

yes, highland piper, I said something like this several times some time ago when discussing timbre.

BTW folks can you now see why what we consider as "modes" of a scale are actually scales in their own right?

JI Aeolian cannot be had as a relative of a JI Ionian (as is faked in ET).
You don't automatically get a B Aeolian that sounds good to the ear using the notes of D Ionian.

In my experience, Hindustani flautists (bansuri) prefer to articulate all their different scales
with XXX OOO tonic which naturally obtains a JI Lydian scale. Where they do deviate from this (and especially in folk whistel - my late father being one )
they prefer XXX XXO for both Dorian and Aeolian tonics.

Personally,speaking, I have never found XOO OOO satisfying for solo Aeolian work.

I find this to be a very important type of topic because, amongst other things, I think that the desertion of JI driven music explains why
* the various Celtic traditions have lost so much audience in the last 100 years
* the indic traditions have lost some of their magic (referring to introduction of harmonium in the last 100 years or so)

(Oh BTW I do play harmonium and I do enjoy a lot of western classical piano).