Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Socializing and general posts on wide-ranging topics. Remember, it's Poststructural!
User avatar
bradhurley
Posts: 2330
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by bradhurley »

caedmon wrote:But given the deletion of the data that showed (by CRU's own admission) a cooling trend since 1960...I am curious as to WHAT data this reporting is based on.
I love how these things take on a life of their own. The "deletion of the data" here refers to tree-ring data that were suggesting a decline in temperatures, which conflicted with the warming shown by records from thousands of weather stations around the world. So it depends on whether you think tree-rings are more accurate than thermometers in terms of their ability to record temperature.

I can see it now: A guy asks his wife, a global warming skeptic, "Honey, what's the temperature outside?" She responds, "Hang on, let me just get the chain saw and I'll tell you in a couple of minutes."

Here's an excerpt from the current Wikipedia entry on the CRU emails:

An excerpt from one November 1999 e-mail authored by Phil Jones, which the UEA has stated refers to a graph he was preparing as a diagram for the cover of the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) statement on the status of global climate in 1999:[25]
"I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie, from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline."[1][26][27]

The graph showed three series of paleoclimate reconstructions, based on records of tree rings, corals, ice cores, lake sediments, etc., along with historical and instrumental records.[28][29] "Mike's Nature trick" referred to a paper published by Michael Mann in Nature in 1998, which combined various proxy records with actual temperature records. Mann described the "trick" as simply a concise way of showing the two kinds of data together while still clearly indicating which was which. He said that there was nothing "hidden or inappropriate" about it, and that his method of combining proxy data had been corroborated by numerous statistical tests and matched thermometer readings taken over the past 150 years.[18] A press release by the University of East Anglia said that the "trick" was using instrumental data to meet a requirement of showing temperatures more recent than those covered by the proxy based temperature reconstructions, and that the use of the word "trick" was not intended to imply any deception.[29]

The phrase "hide the decline" referred specifically to the divergence problem in which post 1960 tree ring proxy data indicate a decline while measured temperatures rise. The reconstruction by Keith Briffa et al. was based solely on tree ring data, which shows a strong correlation with temperature from the 19th century to the mid 20th century.[29] They had published a statement on the divergence problem in 1998, and had recommended that the post 1960 part of their reconstruction should not be used.[30] Jones stated that the email was "written in haste" and that, far from seeking to hide the decline, CRU had published a number of articles on the problem. The implications of the decline are discussed in Chapter 6 of the 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment Report,[29] which describes discussion of various possible reasons for the divergence which does not affect all the trees, and says that there is no consensus about the cause. It notes that Briffa et al. specifically excluded the post 1960 data, which is therefore not shown in the graph of their reconstruction in the report.[31] In his review comments on the report, Stephen McIntyre objected to this graph being truncated, and said that the whole reconstruction should be shown with comments to deal with the "divergence problem". The IPCC response was that this would be inappropriate.[32]

Richard Lindzen of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who has in the past said that graphs were prepared dishonestly and expressed doubts about whether there should be serious concern about global warming, has gone on the record accusing Mann of data rigging and outright falsification. Other climatologists disputed Lindzen's comments. Thomas Peterson of the National Climatic Data Center said he had seen nothing in the emails that called the fundamental science into question, and Andrew Solow of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution agreed that there was no trickery, saying he would use the word trick to describe some methodological step, but expressed the view that the basis of reconstructions had been unclear.[18] Several scientific sources state that the decline being referred to is a decline in tree ring climate proxy metrics, not temperature.[33][29][34] Andrew Watson, Royal Society Research Professor at the UEA, said that the scientists had drawn the line to follow the tree-ring reconstruction up to 1960 and the measured temperature after that."[35]

McIntyre said that the "trick to hide the decline" consisted of removing tree-ring data from the later half of the 20th century. He said that since the cause of the divergence problem is unknown, and it may have existed in earlier periods, tree ring records cannot be used to estimate temperatures in the past.[36]

Before the incident, continuing research had already presented reconstructions based on more proxies, and found similar results with or without the tree ring records.[37]
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by s1m0n »

caedmon wrote:No comment from the Global Warmists?

This is one of your golden boys at the U.N. speaking this information, so, it must be true, right?
If you don't have enough respect for your audience or for whatever it is that you're trying to say to actually say it, why should anyone else?
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by s1m0n »

bradhurley wrote: I love how these things take on a life of their own. The "deletion of the data" here refers to tree-ring data that were suggesting a decline in temperatures, which conflicted with the warming shown by records from thousands of weather stations around the world. So it depends on whether you think tree-rings are more accurate than thermometers in terms of their ability to record temperature.
Many more factors than average temperature or the number of frost-free days influence growth rate in deciduous trees, hence tree ring thickness. The availability of water and the amount of light reaching that tree's leaves both play a role, to name only two other factors.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
User avatar
bradhurley
Posts: 2330
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by bradhurley »

s1m0n wrote: Many more factors than average temperature or the number of frost-free days influence growth rate in deciduous trees, hence tree ring thickness. The availability of water and the amount of light reaching that tree's leaves both play a role, to name only two other factors.
Exactly.

But strangely enough the "denialists" seem to be calling on CRU and IPCC to consider tree-ring data as a more reliable indicator of global temperature than the instrument record. At least that would be the logical conclusion based on all the cries of "foul, you statistically removed the data that showed a cooling trend." Of course, the instrument record has its own problems, but even when you omit all the data from urban stations you still get a global warming trend. And even if you omit all temperature data entirely, there are many other lines of evidence to show that the climate is warming overall: longer growing seasons, changing migration patterns in birds and insects, earlier ice-out date in lakes, changes in snow cover, sea ice extent, glaciers, etc., you really have to have your head in the sand to deny that something's going on. Some areas are experiencing cooler-than-normal temperatures right now, but 2009 still looks to be the fifth or sixth warmest year on record in terms of global average temperature.
User avatar
Denny
Posts: 24005
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:29 am
antispam: No
Location: N of Seattle

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by Denny »

neither of you two seem to understand how "common sense" works.....do ya?
Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
It's dizzying, the possibilities. Ashes, Ashes all fall down.
User avatar
MTGuru
Posts: 18663
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by MTGuru »

Denny wrote:neither of you two seem to understand how "common sense" works.....do ya?
:-?
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
User avatar
Denny
Posts: 24005
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:29 am
antispam: No
Location: N of Seattle

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by Denny »

I was teasing the boys and hippychick
hippiechick wrote:You just need common sense to understand Daniel's view.
aren't the boys responding to Daniel's post?

has anyone seen where I left my teeth?.....glasses?
Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
It's dizzying, the possibilities. Ashes, Ashes all fall down.
User avatar
MTGuru
Posts: 18663
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by MTGuru »

Gotcha. :)
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
Tommy
Posts: 2955
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:39 pm
antispam: No
Location: Yes

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by Tommy »

hippiechick wrote: Here's something on the organic farming ban http://www.educate-yourself.org/cn/HR87 ... ar09.shtml

Thanks for the link. Fist time I have seen that. Around the middle of February I will be planting potatoes. What kind of attorney will I need. :-? Pardon the PUN but this is going to be new ground. LOL
''Whistles of Wood'', cpvc and brass. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69086
User avatar
hippiechick
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:11 am
antispam: No
Location: In the bush

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by hippiechick »

MTGuru wrote:Gotcha. :)
Image

Sorry Denny, they're gone to the dogs
User avatar
Denny
Posts: 24005
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:29 am
antispam: No
Location: N of Seattle

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by Denny »

Woof!!
Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
It's dizzying, the possibilities. Ashes, Ashes all fall down.
User avatar
caedmon
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:17 pm
antispam: No
Location: Oxford, OH

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by caedmon »

My skepticism and disbelief in Global Warming is borne out of the bad science from which it is preached.

My disregard for Global Warmists is borne out of my shock that they should expect me to so blindly ignore the bad science for which they have fallen.

The “scientists” are expected to follow the scientific method, to collect data, analyze it, and draw conclusions based on the data, without regard to your own theory. Let the data speak for itself. If it disproves your theory, change your theory. Not the data.

And is from this that the CRU is guilty of an unforgivable scientific sin. They did willfully, and with much intent, chose to exclude data that did not support their conclusion, conclusions on which the Global Warmists preached on about as fact…because the scientists said it was. They lied, for months, about the data. There was a conspiracy to cover up what they had done. This is further proof of the bad science and why ALL of their conclusions should now be viewed with skepticism and doubt.

Show me data and conclusions that rest on good scientific principle and not political conspiracy, and you will get my attention. Until then, the Global Warming Conspiracy is right up with the Flat Earthers and Fake Moon Landing theorists.
Chad Wilson

Some whistles, an old fiddle, an old banjo, a bass, a guitar and a bodhran
User avatar
SteveShaw
Posts: 10049
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:24 am
antispam: No
Location: Beautiful, beautiful north Cornwall. The Doom Bar is on me.
Contact:

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by SteveShaw »

You are deluding yourself. The evidence that the world has warmed considerably over the last 150 years is incontrovertible, and the link with man-made emissions is so strong that there is hardly a single serious scientist who now denies it. If you don't want to see the evidence you won't look for it, and that appears to be the camp you're in. Doubtless you're sincere in your misguided beliefs, but people like you who actually have influence are going to see us all go to hell in a handcart. It truly is as serious as that. What you need to be doing is to be serious about seeking information and then be serious about taking it on board. Instead, you've latched on to the wrongdoings of a tiny minority of scientists who are charlatans and taken succour from that to reinforce your prejudices. Open your eyes and look for the evidence. It's out there in spades, but you've set your mind against seeing it.
"Last night, among his fellow roughs,
He jested, quaff'd and swore."

They cut me down and I leapt up high
I am the life that'll never, never die.
I'll live in you if you'll live in me -
I am the lord of the dance, said he!
User avatar
Lorenzo
Posts: 5726
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by Lorenzo »

The devil's in the details, so we need to know where all the thermometers are/were located, and how many, and from when until when. There may not be such a thing as global temperature. The ice melted so significantly during the great medieval warming period, from 800-1300AD, that the Vikings were able to establish colonies on Greenland, but that all came to a halt during the Little Ice Age.
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Re: Four degrees of warming 'likely'

Post by s1m0n »

Lorenzo wrote:The devil's in the details, so we need to know where all the thermometers are/were located, and how many, and from when until when.
You'd also want to know where all the trees were, as well as their first and last names.

~~

Another factor governing growth rates is the percentage of atmospheric CO2 - this is one of the tricks used in grow ops to speed the growth of pot plants.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
Post Reply