Pastoral Pipes.
- fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity." - Location: Miltown Malbay
Pastoral Pipes.
Can any one tell me more about their fingering, sound, ? What did they in turn develop from? as they seem to have developed in to the Uilleann Pipes.
Are there any examples of crossovers between the three, Border, Uilleann ,pastoral.
Generally curious about these chanters, and in relation to the border and Uilleann , volume, tone etc
When the Unique UP chanter stock was developed ?
Is it generally accepted that the UP is a progression form the Pastoral pipes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZMFuUycwfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMLvoP71Xf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVZkJmcGfrw
Cheers
Are there any examples of crossovers between the three, Border, Uilleann ,pastoral.
Generally curious about these chanters, and in relation to the border and Uilleann , volume, tone etc
When the Unique UP chanter stock was developed ?
Is it generally accepted that the UP is a progression form the Pastoral pipes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZMFuUycwfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMLvoP71Xf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVZkJmcGfrw
Cheers
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
Jon Swayne, speaking of his own Pastoral pipes, says that a mixtureof open and half-closed fingering seems to work best.
Tri pheth sy'n anodd nabod....
- fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity." - Location: Miltown Malbay
Re: Pastoral Pipes.
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
Hugh Cheape just published a book called Bagpipes: A National Collection of a National Treasure
In it he traces the history of bagpipes in Scotland primarily through an examination of the forensic evidence -- the bagpipes that still exist, and various written sources. There is a chapter on pastoral pipes. IIRC he seems to think that they were developed in cities in Scotland as an attempt to bring the bagpipe into popular (i.e., classical, or western-art) music. There's a great engraving reproduced in the book of an (outdoor) opera production where the orchestra includes a pastoral pipe.
In it he traces the history of bagpipes in Scotland primarily through an examination of the forensic evidence -- the bagpipes that still exist, and various written sources. There is a chapter on pastoral pipes. IIRC he seems to think that they were developed in cities in Scotland as an attempt to bring the bagpipe into popular (i.e., classical, or western-art) music. There's a great engraving reproduced in the book of an (outdoor) opera production where the orchestra includes a pastoral pipe.
- Celtpastor
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
...though I have to say - like many writers of british ancestory - at least in his older books, Cheape's somewhat narrowminded and focussed only on instruments and sources found in Scotland and other parts of the UK, and sometimes rather patriotic than logical...
Haven't read this latest book, though. ![wink ;-)](./images/smilies/icon_wink_144.gif)
The theory You quoted, however, seems at least plausible. A similar evolution seems to have taken place with UP, considering the regs. They may have even come from Pastoral Pipes, since they're a pretty recent invention. The UPs themselves, however, seem to be somewhat older and not necessarily connected to any Scottish pipes - or at least not closer than e.g. bellows-blown Scottish pipes to the much earlier French Musettes de Court...
![sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_frown_144.gif)
![wink ;-)](./images/smilies/icon_wink_144.gif)
The theory You quoted, however, seems at least plausible. A similar evolution seems to have taken place with UP, considering the regs. They may have even come from Pastoral Pipes, since they're a pretty recent invention. The UPs themselves, however, seem to be somewhat older and not necessarily connected to any Scottish pipes - or at least not closer than e.g. bellows-blown Scottish pipes to the much earlier French Musettes de Court...
Dilige et, quod vis, fac!
- fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity." - Location: Miltown Malbay
Re: Pastoral Pipes.
Thats what I thought, but when you look at the historical evidence,now I know that the Pastoral scale has a natural C at the bottom. D mix, that the GHB repertoire can be played on them, take off the foot joint and you basically have a UP chanter . The various pipes clearly influenced each other, as did the makers. It was however , I think, In the pastoral / UP transformation time line ,for the pipes to be called 'the Irish pipes' lead by Irish Maker/s or player/s. The fact that the development of the instrument took place to a great extent in Edinburgh as well as Dublin is just a sign of the times.
Obviously lots is conjecture, but IMO its a very exiting time to be involved in the piping world. new inventions, advanced techniques , old documents, freedom of information, new breeds of makers, recording, communication networks. The amount and quality of knowledge available to anyone with the patience and persistence to search for it is amazing. I feel incredibly blessed to be a small part of this renaissance in piping..
Obviously lots is conjecture, but IMO its a very exiting time to be involved in the piping world. new inventions, advanced techniques , old documents, freedom of information, new breeds of makers, recording, communication networks. The amount and quality of knowledge available to anyone with the patience and persistence to search for it is amazing. I feel incredibly blessed to be a small part of this renaissance in piping..
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
I haven't read his older books. The current book is primarily based on the collection of the Scottish national museum, but he does reference to other collections in Scotland and also in other parts of Europe and in North America as well. But it is a book about Scottish bagpipes.Celtpastor wrote:...though I have to say - like many writers of british ancestory - at least in his older books, Cheape's somewhat narrowminded and focussed only on instruments and sources found in Scotland and other parts of the UK, and sometimes rather patriotic than logical...Haven't read this latest book, though.
![]()
I think Scottish pipers (in particular Highland Pipers) tend to try to create their history by looking only at the sources that specifically mention Highland Bagpipes, as if the pipes and the men and women who played them were not part of a larger cultural environment (let alone a larger musical environment). "Not invented here.."
- AaronMalcomb
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
Ross Anderson's music page has some pastoral pipe resources including Geoghegan's tutour. Scroll down about halfway. The page is stuffed to the brim with great piping information of an academic, antiquarian variety.
- elbowmusic
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- Tell us something.: I'm back in the uilleann piping world after a ten year hiatus. Uilleann piping chops, here I come!
I'm a smallpipe and Border pipe maker and we'll just see where that leads to. - Location: Howl's Unmoving Castle
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
I'd just like to point out that all the youtube clips you posted are of pipes that are not actually pastoral pipes. The Jon Swayne pipes are his Border pipes based on French Pipes. And, though the maker of Remi's pipes calls his pipes pastoral pipes, I've been told by Jon Swayne that the maker confesses that they are also based on French Pipes.
The only recordings I know of online are:
http://wireharp.com/wireharp_016.htm
(I think the Highlander's farewell is on Pastoral Pipes)
And Ross Anderson's very interesting talk at the William Kennedy Piping Festival on Pastoral Pipes:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/music/
He plays his set of pastoral pipes several times throughout the lecture.
Nate
The only recordings I know of online are:
http://wireharp.com/wireharp_016.htm
(I think the Highlander's farewell is on Pastoral Pipes)
And Ross Anderson's very interesting talk at the William Kennedy Piping Festival on Pastoral Pipes:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/music/
He plays his set of pastoral pipes several times throughout the lecture.
Nate
-Nate Banton-
Smallpipes and Border Pipes http://www.natebanton.com
Smallpipes and Border Pipes http://www.natebanton.com
- Celtpastor
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
Well - as right as You are - we shouldn't forget, that the only serious difference between a french cornemuse-chanter and a borderpipe-chanter is the 2nd thumbhole, which is an invention of 20th century only...
Also, there was no real difference between early GHB and all the other 2-drone-conical-chantered pipes to be found since the middle-ages anywhere in Europe - the first significant change to make GHB into an instrument of it's own was the addition of the 3rd drone - afaik, not before 18th century!
The typical thing about scottish pipes is not the instrument itself - they're just typical western-european bagpipes - but the technique of playing them!
Also, there was no real difference between early GHB and all the other 2-drone-conical-chantered pipes to be found since the middle-ages anywhere in Europe - the first significant change to make GHB into an instrument of it's own was the addition of the 3rd drone - afaik, not before 18th century!
The typical thing about scottish pipes is not the instrument itself - they're just typical western-european bagpipes - but the technique of playing them!
Dilige et, quod vis, fac!
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
Mr. Cheape's book makes an interesting claim.
That the Great Highland Bagpipe is a Victorian invention. Not that there weren't other three drone, conical bore chanter instrument in Scotland previously, but that the instrument as we know it today was developed by makers in Edinbourgh and other cities who probably learned instrument making via mainstream instrument makers (i.e., oboe makers). In fact, he's dug up a really interesting bit of verse written by a bard around the turn of the 19th century, lamenting the accendency of the new-style bagpipe (created to suit the needs of the piping competitions).
That the Great Highland Bagpipe is a Victorian invention. Not that there weren't other three drone, conical bore chanter instrument in Scotland previously, but that the instrument as we know it today was developed by makers in Edinbourgh and other cities who probably learned instrument making via mainstream instrument makers (i.e., oboe makers). In fact, he's dug up a really interesting bit of verse written by a bard around the turn of the 19th century, lamenting the accendency of the new-style bagpipe (created to suit the needs of the piping competitions).
- fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity." - Location: Miltown Malbay
Re: Pastoral Pipes.
Thanks for the links. I do have HC new book but I dont think he makes those assertions HP.
Though of course its pretty clear that the old GHB had 2 drones. See 'dance to the piper' 'lots is conjecture of course. Some will be right some wrong, and some we will never know! but its a very interesting subject for me and all your posts are very welcome.
I have a pretty comprehensive library but all suggestions are welcome for further reading. The NPU offer an article discussing HC book and his reply... cheers
Though of course its pretty clear that the old GHB had 2 drones. See 'dance to the piper' 'lots is conjecture of course. Some will be right some wrong, and some we will never know! but its a very interesting subject for me and all your posts are very welcome.
![smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile_144.gif)
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
- Celtpastor
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
...that would make the GHB as we know it today a rather english instrument, then... ![really. :really:](./images/smilies/icon_really_buis.gif)
![really. :really:](./images/smilies/icon_really_buis.gif)
Dilige et, quod vis, fac!
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Re: Pastoral Pipes.
You might be right, but those are the impressions I took away from it. Take a look at the last two or three pages again. I had to read it twice before what he was saying really sunk in.fiddlerwill wrote:Thanks for the links. I do have HC new book but I dont think he makes those assertions HP.
He also says that evidence is pretty scant and there could be other explanations.
- fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity." - Location: Miltown Malbay
Re: Pastoral Pipes.
I did HP. What I get from that is that, as we basically know, the pipes have gone through a process of evolution, as is to be expected. The hand carved pipes and treadle lathe made pipes were superseded by a louder, bigger version, the Great drone is added etc. But this doesnt take away from the evidence we have of pipes, with the mixolydian scale, and drones as being a part of the 'Celtic' Heritage. The oldest traditional tunes I know of, are old Irish Clan marches. O'Neills march, March of the King of Laoise, |Brian Boru's march. I feel confident in saying these are pipe tunes for the Piob mhor . The Old Celtic \Culture of Ireland and Scotland are inexorably linked. The Irish sea being the Highway linking them. IMO these pipes came up the coast of Spain From Africa a long time ago, do I have proof? No.
Pastoral pipes however are meant to be the main focus of the is discussion!
What do we know of them?
cheers
I gather there were 2 different fingerings for them during their evolution, ' a Highland' fingering, and an' Uilleann' fingering. in the Highland [H] fingering C is bottom hand closed, back D covered and top hand open. UP fingering has back D open, first finger of each hand open. rest covered.
C# has the Highland fingering back D open, bottom hole of top hand open rest covered. UP C# fingering has back D closed top hand open bottom closed .
Now this is possibly a stage in their evolution as makers adjusted their chanters to their own liking or that of their customers, or maybe 2 different streams?
Also I gather the chanter basically a development of the Baroque oboe, of which I know nothing.
Pastoral pipes however are meant to be the main focus of the is discussion!
![big grin :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin_144.gif)
cheers
I gather there were 2 different fingerings for them during their evolution, ' a Highland' fingering, and an' Uilleann' fingering. in the Highland [H] fingering C is bottom hand closed, back D covered and top hand open. UP fingering has back D open, first finger of each hand open. rest covered.
C# has the Highland fingering back D open, bottom hole of top hand open rest covered. UP C# fingering has back D closed top hand open bottom closed .
Now this is possibly a stage in their evolution as makers adjusted their chanters to their own liking or that of their customers, or maybe 2 different streams?
Also I gather the chanter basically a development of the Baroque oboe, of which I know nothing.
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs