Help with trying to practice ornamentation

[whistle_beginner_83]

Hi All

I've been learning the tin whistle for a while now and feel that I have definitely got the basics no problem. Now I want to start challenging myself and learn the ornamentation. The class I was taking touched on taps and rolls and I did get to practice them a little in class, the taps more than the rolls so I feel I know the taps. Unfortunately I travel a lot and often in places where finding a tin whistle tutor is impossible. I'm really having difficulty trying to figure out what is the best way to practice, particularly the ornamentation and how to put them in the tunes, without a teacher to guide me.
I'm getting really frustrated and don't want to give up because I've been stopping and starting learning the whistle for years, this time I want to persevere.
Can anyone offer any advice at all or know of any websites that can help??

I'd really appreciate your help.

Thanks

[chris_coreline]

taps and rols take time, not a vast ammount of time, but time none the less...

it may be worth you-tubbing for Father Dunne's whistle lesons; as he has a little tunefull phrase you can practice where you tap/ roll on E, G, B, then come back down, the go up again in F# and A and back down... in jig time - its simpler then it sounds, its good practice, like scales for ornimentation.

hopefully somone else can point you in the right direction link wise, im in work and dont have any access to the tube.

[chrisp]

Hi

The link for Ryan Dunne is http://www.youtube.com/user/RyanDunsSJ

Brother steve's tin whistle pages is helpful http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/b ... index.html

Also try Micheal Eskins site has many tunes, and he plays both a slow and normal version for learning, also very helpful as you can see how it's done visually on his videos. http://www.tradlessons.com/?cat=4

Good luck

Chris

[cboody]

One way to get comfortable with cuts, taps (strikes) and rolls is to find tunes that particularly lend themselves to a particular ornament and just "beat" the ornament (and the tune sadly) to death. One place to stick in ornaments is when a particular note is repeated. Combine these two ideas. Take "Lark in the Morning" and add a cut every time there is a repeated note. If that gets comfortable try a tap on every repeated note (some of those won't sound so good, but hey! you are practicing not performing. When you can do that take a look at the B section (and some particular points in other sections) where you have either a quarter-eighth note pattern on the same pitch or a dotted quarter note. Replace those with rolls.

Once this is easy try taking the concept (tap or cut repeated notes and roll longer notes) to other tunes. That's not going to get you all of the things that good players do, but it is a start. And, I think it makes hearing what others are doing easier too as you get used to the sound of those common additions (BTW do folks here call them ornaments? articulations? variations? I've never found a term that really makes sense for me...)

[fiddlerwill]

I feel that this 'beating a tune to death approach' is a shame. It typically results in these tunes being discarded from the repertoire. Tunes such as blarney pilgrim become associated with the learning process and condemned because they have been beaten to death.
This is one reason why I favour drills and exercises. These deal purely with technical issues and the skills attained through these exercises can then be applied as an when required . So the tunes stay fresh and unpolluted. IMO scales arpeggios and the like are of great benefit for many reasons that might not be obvious to the neophyte .

IMO practice your rolls, cuts, crans, etc as exercises, separate from the making of music and the playing of tunes for fun. Dont beat tunes to death, respect them. play your scales and practice the rolls on each notes, same with taps, etc. Do this a lot, like really a LOT. it doesnt matter if you become bored with them, go through the boredom, its only a state of mind. Anyhow boredom is not inevitable, it is a choice. Far better to be bored of exercises than bored of some of the fabulous tunes that are beaten to death by learners.
Enjoy

[highland-piper]

IMO practice your rolls, cuts, crans, etc as exercises, separate from the making of music and the playing of tunes for fun.

IMO, if you (the generic "you") want to become good, then don't expect practice to be "fun."

For me, practice is about drilling the things I'm not good at, and that's rarely fun.

As a Highland piper I spend most of my practice time working on a handful of tunes that I play in competition. I don't get tired of them -- if I did, it would make me a poor competitor. That might be a personality issue... I can't begin to tell you how many hours I spent last season working on a single 2/4 march. Probably 200 at least.

I understand the concept of exercises, but mostly I practice my ornaments in the context of my music. So if I have a tune and it's got a roll on E between a D and a G (or whatever) then I'll focus on practicing rolls on E between D and G. Once I can play that combination, then I practice playing it in the context of the notes in my tune. If I can do that, then I don't really see the point in practicing all the other combinations of rolls and the notes they can come after and before. I might try the others just to see how I'm doing, but if there's something I can't play that's not in any tunes I'm working on, I don't worry about it. Eventually I'll get some other tune that will have that combo and I'll practice it then.

[Mick Down Under]

IMO practice your rolls, cuts, crans, etc as exercises, separate from the making of music and the playing of tunes for fun.

IMO, if you (the generic "you") want to become good, then don't expect practice to be "fun."

For me, practice is about drilling the things I'm not good at, and that's rarely fun.

As a Highland piper I spend most of my practice time working on a handful of tunes that I play in competition. I don't get tired of them -- if I did, it would make me a poor competitor. That might be a personality issue... I can't begin to tell you how many hours I spent last season working on a single 2/4 march. Probably 200 at least.

I understand the concept of exercises, but mostly I practice my ornaments in the context of my music. So if I have a tune and it's got a roll on E between a D and a G (or whatever) then I'll focus on practicing rolls on E between D and G. Once I can play that combination, then I practice playing it in the context of the notes in my tune. If I can do that, then I don't really see the point in practicing all the other combinations of rolls and the notes they can come after and before. I might try the others just to see how I'm doing, but if there's something I can't play that's not in any tunes I'm working on, I don't worry about it. Eventually I'll get some other tune that will have that combo and I'll practice it then.

Your neighbours must hate you (the singular You, not the plural or generic you)


Mick

[highland-piper]

Your neighbours must hate you (the singular You, not the plural or generic you)


Mick

Yeah, but they shoot guns, have chainsaws and motorcycles, and dogs that bark at all hours. Did I mention the guns? No sympathy. I get up early so I can finish well before 8 AM too.

I think the kid next door got an AK 47 for an early Christmas present. Wicked loud and too much like a gun to be fireworks -- but guns have a high operating cost, so at least they are self limiting...

They can be thankful at 0630 that at least I have the decency to stay indoors!

[cboody]

Just a note to the "exercise folks:" Note that I said "one way." Yeah you can destroy a tune, but you don't necessarily do that. Not if you keep in mind making the tune sound good and not just the finger wiggling. But yeah exercises work better for some folks. Different Strokes....

Oh! I never met a GHP player who wasn't very happy beating the ornaments into a tune. At least not a good one. I remember the pipe major of a group I was in remarking that the Irish musicians "couldn't even get their ornaments together." A different world that...

[Blaydo]

I remember the pipe major of a group I was in remarking that the Irish musicians "couldn't even get their ornaments together."

Tell him to say that to St. Laurence O'Toole and Field Marshal Montgomery.

[fiddlerwill]

A starting GHB player could well work on their ornaments for 6 to 9 months before even touching a tune. We typically spend hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours perfecting our Birls and cranns so that when we need one, its there ready for use. same with doubling etc. IMO trying to incorporate these ornaments into a tune without already 'having them' can disturb the flow of the melody and rhythm. They need to be automatic to start and end in the right place and to take up the correct amount of time in the context of the tune .
In reply to HP His approach makes sense within the modern GHB tradition but it ITM we have a different approach. The ornaments; cuts, rolls etc are added in as and when the individual chooses, or left out altogether.

[highland-piper]

A starting GHB player could well work on their ornaments for 6 to 9 months before even touching a tune. We typically spend hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours perfecting our Birls and cranns so that when we need one, its there ready for use. same with doubling etc. IMO trying to incorporate these ornaments into a tune without already 'having them' can disturb the flow of the melody and rhythm. They need to be automatic to start and end in the right place and to take up the correct amount of time in the context of the tune .

Yes, exactly. A bit off topic but at the same time that I'm digging into tin whistle again I'm also learning to play the Crunluath A Mach embellishments on GHB. My instructor told me to start working on them now, with the intention of beign able to play them in the tune this fall

In reply to HP His approach makes sense within the modern GHB tradition but it ITM we have a different approach. The ornaments; cuts, rolls etc are added in as and when the individual chooses, or left out altogether.

Fortunately I learned whistle to some degree long before picking up pipes. I set the whistle aside for 10 years, but I've got some friends who play Irish music on other instruments, so I'm getting back into it. It's kind of interesting to compare and contrast the approaches. It's also really nice to be able to learn a new tune in a day, instead of a month!
I still use about the same approach to practice though -- I work on the elements of the tunes in the context of the tunes and I work on them until I can play them, and then I try them in the tunes, with the goal of being able to play them well.

[JayDoc]

Blayne Chastain has a really cool online lessons resource. I've been using it for a few months. He includes sections on techniques per se, and then adds a tune a week. He covers either/both whistle and flute. You subscribe for the full lessons, but I find them to be a bargain. He has videos of each tune, plays it first as he (an experienced player) would, then "bare bones" (without ornamentation). Then he goes through the tune phrase by phrase, then has a video to work on ornaments. The ornaments sections tie back in to the technique lessons (most of which are ornaments). His latest tune lesson also has a segment on transitioning from bare bones to adding ornamentation. As an intermediate beginner, I find these to be the next best thing to having a real live teacher in the room (he responds to questions too). So I'm a big fan of Blayne's program. I believe you can get it at www.blaynechastain.com. I have no personal interest in his program, and don't know him personally (though he has responded to several questions I've had)-- just a student and fan. Beginner player, I think you'd enjoy and benefit from checking that out.
Best,
Jaydoc

[walrii]

No sympathy. I get up early so I can finish well before 8 AM too.

Now we know why the neighbors have guns!

[SkipJack]

Practicing my ornaments and incorporating them into songs is my own major goal right now. I practice ornamentation three ways. Firstly in scales: taps, cuts, rolls, etc. up and down and up and down and up. Secondly, since I have no formal teacher either, I listen to and watch a lot of players on YouTube and on my iPod like Ryan Dunns, Joanie Madden, and Brian Finnegan. Scales are good for functionality. Studying the music helps with style, what to put and when, and with some functional elements. All of this stuff comes together when you start adding ornaments into songs, and that is where most of the discovery is. Generally, I slowly play through a song measure by measure experimenting with what sounds good and what doesn't and basically relearn the song with my favorite ornamentation scheme added in. I work systematically, finding homes for the more complex ornaments first such as rolls and crans and then add in the simpler cuts, taps and slides.