Are R&R's really that great?

[Denny]

By the way, I've got a very nice Rudall on ebay at the moment that has a nice original head and a Chris Wilkes head as well, which for some might be the best of both worlds. It's priced at what I paid to another list member a few years ago, before I had Jon C. replace the pads:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0513520633

yeah, it was noted:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... K:MEWAX:IT

...there's another one.

on the Another R&R on ebay.uk thread

[I.D.10-t]

So with all of these things about embouchure and tricks, whose flute come the most close and how were you suppose to approach them?

[RudallRose]

well said, Mr. Ogden. By the way.....would LOVE to hear a new posting of your playing of late. With such terrific flutes to sell -- and to play -- you've probably come a long way by now.

I figure I should be doing the same, too.

[Terry McGee]

It's interesting to consider whether Rudall & Rose had such a unique reputation in their own day. The only contemporary reference I can bring to mind is Rockstro's, but we have to remember his flute design was manufactured by Rudalls, so he is hardly an unbiased reporter. (And we know in terms of Siccama, Boehm, Clinton and Radcliff, he was a very biassed reporter.)

Rockstro's very positive comments on Rudalls were subsequently reported by every writer on the flute since, as were his very negative ones on Clinton. Ideally, we should take Rockstro out of the equation, on the grounds of the proven bias, but that would leave us with very little indeed!

Terry

[bradhurley]

There's a certain complexity of tone that the antiques have that I haven't found in newly made instruments.

The other thing I think that sets R&Rs apart is related to their tuning, which forces you to approach individual notes from different angles and degrees of focus to get them into tune. This gives each of those notes a particular character, and the overall effect when listening to the instrument is a very expressive range of tonal qualities. You can hear this pretty clearly on the Michael Flatley clip that Jim posted: Flatley himself is of course altering the tone of some notes deliberately, but some of the range in timbres you hear comes from the flute itself.

It's similar in a way to the chanter of the uilleann pipes: each note on the chanter has a distinctive voice, and anyone who's spent time listening to the pipes can figure out which notes are which immediately upon listening: the bottom D, the E, the C natural, the back D, all have timbres that are distinctly different from those of any other note. It's a similar story with the Rudalls: the flute is not a blank slate but brings its own qualities (some would say limitations) to the table, and the player isn't necessarily the boss.

Of course, a good player can produce a similar range of tonal qualities from a perfectly in-tune flute, but why go through all those gyrations if a flute that does half the work for you is available?

[Terry McGee]

Hmmm, what is that air that Flatley is playing in that clip? I certainly don't know it by his name for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsh6TNqnCJo

His version is somewhat "overdone", but that of course is his job. I remember the late Declan Affley sang it in an English translation to great effect. I find I can play it myself, though I don't remember ever doing so! Osmosis, I guess. There was a lot of it around.

Terry

[Terry McGee]

Ah, answering my own question. It's the Coulin, surely. I wonder where the Whispering Winds title comes from?

Terry

[pancelticpiper]

For many years I played a boxwood R&R made at their 1827-1837 address. It had ivory rings, a solid ivory cap, and silver keys. Pewter plugs on the footjoint. One of the nicest details was that the tuning slide was sheathed in thin boxwood so that no metal showed anywhere on the flute save for the keywork.

That was an amazing flute. Very easy to blow, very responsive. You only had to think of the note and it would happen, it seemed. Tuning oddities yes, the F# was rather flat in the low octaves and you had to push the bottom D a bit to bring it up. Otherwise the tuning was perfect.

Now it didn't have that big booming Pratten sound for sessions but for airs you couldn't beat it.

[jemtheflute]

the F# was rather flat in the low octaves and you had to push the bottom D a bit to bring it up. Otherwise the tuning was perfect.

I bet that if you vented the Eb and an F key for that F# in 1st & 2nd 8ves (like what it was meant to be....) it was near enough spot on. (Mine is!)

[Steampacket]

"The other thing I think that sets R&Rs apart is related to their tuning, which forces you to approach individual notes from different angles and degrees of focus to get them into tune. This gives each of those notes a particular character, and the overall effect when listening to the instrument is a very expressive range of tonal qualities. " BradHurley.

"That was an amazing flute. Very easy to blow, very responsive. You only had to think of the note and it would happen, it seemed. Tuning oddities yes, the F# was rather flat in the low octaves and you had to push the bottom D a bit to bring it up. Otherwise the tuning was perfect." pancelticpiper. To which JEM replyed: "I bet that if you vented the Eb and an F key for that F# in 1st & 2nd 8ves (like what it was meant to be....) it was near enough spot on. (Mine is!)" Jem.

Just a couple of interesting responses regarding Rudalls. Someone else mentioned "tricks" to playing Rudalls, one involving "a stiff upper lip". Are there other "tricks" (secrets or information good to know) as regards getting the best out of these flutes? Besides the obvious routes of practicing and getting to know the flute?
I have no experience playing a Rudall myself. I've head them played in sessions in Ireland & Denmark and I've held a few and examined them, that's all. I do own a Wilkes based on a Rudall and it is a very interesting flute as regards tonal qualites and I suspect that maybe some of the "tricks" applicable to Rudalls could also be applied to this flute.

[bradhurley]

As far as tricks go, the biggest one is learning how to get the bottom D properly, which involves adjusting your embouchure so you're blowing more across the hole (i.e., "lipping up") and hitting that note with more force and focus than you might typically use for other notes in the first octave. Once you get the hang of that, the result is a very free, open, and massive bottom D that's perfectly in tune.

If you have keys you can adjust the tuning of the other "out of tune" notes (F#, C#, etc.) by using the keys as they were originally intended rather than using the standard whistle-style fingering. But you can also just lip those notes up or down to get them in tune, which is what I normally do (and what most traditional players do). I occasionally use the keys to bring tunes into proper pitch when playing airs, or if I happen to feel like it, and I do find myself using the Eb/D# key a lot to make the E stronger and more in tune -- when you open that key you can really lay into the E and it comes across as a much stronger and louder note than normally.

The A is usually quite sharp, especially apparent in the second octave, and you just have to remember to lip down to flatten it.

At first all this may feel awkward and a lot of work, but over time it becomes second nature. If you watch some of the closeups of flute players on youtube you'll see them making lots of micro-adjustments of their chin and blowing angle, it really becomes unconscious after awhle.

You can get flutes that don't require any of these small gymnastics to play in tune, but then you have to work to make your tone sound less monotonous and one-dimensional. With a Rudall, your playing sounds interesting almost automatically because so many notes are colored by the different angles of attack and focus that you use to bring the notes into tune.

[jemtheflute]

@ Steampacket: these things aren't really "tricks". Certainly using key-vented fingerings where appropriate as indicated on contemporary fingering charts shouldn't be thought of thus. Sure, most ITM players don't use them. No use then complaining that particular notes (F#, open C#, low E) are flat! It can be awkward to vent in fast passing, but minor pitch deviation hardly shows then, and venting is not incompatible with ITM technique/style in a general sense. If you want those notes to be "in tune" without key venting, don't play a period flute or an accurate copy thereof, but get a modern one with adjusted tuning. (It is actually more-or-less impossible to get the open C# sharp enough without upsetting other notes on a keyless/without having a C key to vent, and low E is usually at best weak if not flat without an Eb key to vent because of the high & small tone-hole.... - basic flute physics.) Make at least some gesture towards the playing technique expected by the makers (acknowledge it, even if you aren't going to follow it) and you will likely find those "problem" notes aren't necessarily out of tune at all. To some extent a similar observation might be made about embouchure technique, though that is more nebulous.

I'm not suggesting that one has to take a "classical" or "period" approach, and I'm sure many trad players make compensations in playing just by ear/by dint of good technique generally, though very probably if one did RTA analyses or similar of their playing one would find the usual tuning characteristics of the instruments showing through, but not noticeably to a human listener to a performance. Nonetheless, at least knowing about and understanding the original design expectations and intentions equips one better to understand and appreciate an instrument for what it is/can do rather than unfairly and ignorantly to criticise it without understanding for what it isn't/can't do!

[Clinton]

Lots of folks with way more experience than I, have written fairyl authoritatively now. I am not playing a RR, but am playing a couple of other "Rudally" antique flutes now, and everything said above seems spot on in my (albeit limited) experience. I find that if I am blasting through a reel, I tend to use more of the whistle fingerings, but as soon as I am playing a piece where I am dwelling longer on the notes, the original ventings can be useful to really adjust those notes into tune. And, no one has mentioned yet (I think) that in different keys, one can play different notes sharper or flatter, depending on where they end up in the new scale (the leading note into the tonic is the most obvious, but are others).

Clinton

[Steampacket]

Thanks Brad and Jem for explaining.

[chris_coreline]

'basic flute physics' - oxymoron surley?