is that metal fipple made of lead or pewter?

crubeen · Post by **crubeen** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:46 am

I've got a lovely old brass whistle that I found in a junk shop about 25 years ago. I think it's from about 1900 and it's my favourite to play. The only reason it doesn't get played more is that it's in the key of B so is no good for sessions.

It's got a grey metal fipple (very heavy) which disturbs me a bit because if it's lead then I may start forgetting even more tunes. Does anyone know if the metal fipples were lead or (phew) pewter (or something else)? I'd be glad of any info.

thanks

Mark_J · Post by **Mark_J** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:51 am

Holy Paint Chips, Batman.

It is probably and very likely to be LEAD.

ndjr · Post by **ndjr** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 11:28 am

Crubeen,

Have a look at this web page ...
http://www.chiffandfipple.com/normanscollection.htm

... and see if your whistle looks like number 4 in Norman Dannatt's collection. The picture isn't great, but it may be sufficient to make an identification. If it does, then what you may have on the mouthpiece is lead solder -- not much better than just plain lead!

If you live near a university, then their chemistry department may be able to help you with non-destructive ways of determining the composition of the metal coating on your mouthpiece. In the mean time, lead and lead-based solders are very soft, so you might try scratching the coating in an unobtrusive place with your fingernail. If you are able to do so, then this strongly suggests lead or lead-based solder.

crubeen · Post by **crubeen** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:46 pm

I looked at the picture of Norman Dannatt's whistles and, even though it is straight rather than tapered, it's clearly a very similar instrument.

I've had the fipple covered with Sellotape for a while now, but it's never possible to cover it all because it starts to block the airway.

It might have to just be an ornament from now on. But maybe if I got a lenghth of laboratory rubber tubing. Hmmmm.......

Tres · Post by **Tres** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:46 pm

go to a good paint store or hardware store's paint department and get a lead detector. They are little liquid filled vials that you break open and rub the tip on the surface you want to test. If the tip changes color, there is lead. They are very cheap (maybe $5)

Tres

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 6:17 pm

Crubeen

I have what I believe to be an old Generation that may me similar to what you have, except that it's in the key of G (high). The whistle is brass, cylindrical. The upper surface of the mouthpiece is brass, cut away below. If you have seen one of Mack Hoover's narrow bore D whistles, you know what I mean. Where Mack's fipple plug is corian, though, that on this old whistle is dark metal, relatively soft (toothmarks) and I strongly believe it to be lead.

The whistle is VERY playable despite a few little dents and, IMHO, FAR superior to any plastic-fippled Generation.

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 5:24 am

If that fipple is indeed lead, you may be able to clearcoat t with several (many?) coats of polyurethane, or clear nail polish to protect youself. Also, a whistlemaker might be able to replace it with a fipple of a safer material if you're not concernedwith the "collectible" antique value of the whistle ,and just want it for playing.

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 8:18 pm

In all seriousness, how dangerous could surface lip contact with a 1/2" x 1/4" strip of lead (the upper surface is brass) really be? I mean, I know that little kids get brain damage from eating lead paint chips, but that's not what we're talking about here. When playing, my lower lip touches the lead. I've already put in 5 and a half decades here, surely the end impact wouldn't be THAT horrific if I ATE the entire chunk, much less letting it rest on my lip for a couple of hours a week.

ndjr · Post by **ndjr** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 8:57 am

On 2001-07-11 22:18, Chuck_Clark wrote:
In all seriousness, how dangerous could surface lip contact with a 1/2" x 1/4" strip of lead (the upper surface is brass) really be? I mean, I know that little kids get brain damage from eating lead paint chips, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Disclaimer: I am not a biochemist, nor do I play one on TV. Having said that ....

The black stuff the dentist has you spit out after installing a filling is metallic mercury -- remember the metallic taste? Some of it is undoubtedly swallowed and passes through the system, presumably without noticable effect. Andrew Jackson, famous for many things, lived several decades of his life with the lead pistol ball he had received in a duel so close to his heart that the physicians didn't dare to try to remove it. It was there while he served as President of the United States.

Recalling my disclaimer above, it is my understanding that heavy metals, as metals, are really not so dangerous as when they exist as compounds, particularly organic ones. This is why tetraethyl lead is so dangerous: Lead in organic compounds is much more easily assimilated. I also understand that lead fumes, as when working with molten lead, or fine lead dust, are more easily absorbed by the lungs than other forms; but as Chuck Clark observed, that's not what we're talking about here.

Lead pipe was once used in municipal water systems because of the relative inertness of metallic lead -- its resistance to corrosion -- and it's only a problem if the water is soft. Hard water precipitates a coating on the inner surface of the pipe, isolating the lead from the stream. Soft water doesn't do this, and further tends to dissolve the lead ( see 'compounds,' above ). One wonders in this context about the chemical properties of saliva.

I suppose my practice would be to regard an instrument with a lead or lead-coated mouthpiece as an interesting curiosity rather than as one to be played. There are so many really fine instruments available nowadays which are lead-free that I don't think I would find it necessary to play it.

For what it's worth, this is what I know -- or what I think I know. Your mileage may vary, and I'm certainly not quarreling with those who do play such instruments.

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 8:26 pm

The problem is that there really aren't that many (any?) great G whistles. Generation makes a little plastic-fippled screamer that serves admirably for training gun dogs but ranges beyond the hearing of some people, not to mention that the holes are microscopically far apart for adults. I know of no others, though I'd not be at all surprised if Colin Goldie makes one.

This one is probably a Gen, albeit very old, but in playability it differs from a modern Generation like night from day. For me, it's arguably one of my favorite whistles

thomlarson · Post by **thomlarson** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 8:43 pm

I posted this pic a few times before at the old board. This is an old Generation G with a lead fipple plug. I was told that it's probably from the 30's, but I have no way of verifying that. It plays beautifully - I put a piece of electrical tape over the bottom of the fipple plug to keep the lead away from my lip. I have no idea if the lead could be a potential problem or not, but i figure better safe than sorry...
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A few other makers do make high Gs also. For instance, I have a few Chieftains and a few Alloy Silkstones (nontunable) that I never have gotten around to listing at the website.

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:24 am

If you're looking for a terrific high G ( not an oxymoron), Glenn Schultz aka Thin Weasel makes a fabulous,if pricey, one. I have one in blackwood which is simply gorgeous, and very pocket size. The precision of the machining is amazing, and the sound is very sweet.

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:49 am

Thom,

I recall that picture. It's why I'm convinced the one I have is a Generation. The only difference that I can see is that mine has no decal, just a stamped "G" about where the decal would be on a Generation. The seller (eBay) claimed it was from about 1900, which may explain the difference. It's so sweet in comparison to my modern Generation G that it's almost scary ( but the highest D/E still fade into the hypersonic range.

Whistlepeg · Post by **Whistlepeg** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:36 pm

I tried to post this earlier, but it didn't seem to work, so here goes again:
http://www.ric.edu/rpotter/SJFranklin.html
This site has information about Sir John Franklin whose expedition to find the North West Passage ended in disaster. One theory is that the lead in the canned food gave them lead poisoning and they wandering around the arctic in confusion for weeks until they perished. So.......do you really want to play that lead fippled whistle, no telling what horrible fate awaits you!
Sue

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 8:11 pm

Okay, while still not totally convinced, I just coated the exposed lead with three coats of my wife's nail polish (Avon Creamy Sheers Nail Enamel). Now someone please reassure me that that stuff isn't as toxic as the lead itself.