Riveted or handsewn bags

[Marcelo Muttis]

Well this topic is not intended to create a controversy or discussion (the "vs." thing) but I already know the durability and advantages of handsewn leather bags and I`m tempted to make a riveted one.
Just want to hear opinions or experiences either positive or negative ones about both.
Thanks in advance.

[Tigrou]

My understanding is that all bags are (hand)sewn. The rivets are only potentially added for cosmetic reasons.

How could rivets with no sewing make an airtight bag ?

Or have I missed something ?

[Marcelo Muttis]

Thanks for your post, AFAIK the sewing isn`t make it "completely" airtight, and I imagine that the rivets acts as stitches compressing the four leather layers close enough to each other to create a joint.
Is there anybody using a good riveted bag out there? to add something?

[billh]

I can say from experience that it's possible to make an airtight bag either by saddle-stitching or by riveting (I haven't made such bags myself. but I've used bags of both types made by other people, without seasoning).

I think that the most airtight riveted bags use glue under the welt to help provide an airtight edge seal - the welt is glued to the leather edge as well as being riveted.

regards,

Bill

[Marcelo Muttis]

Thanks Bill, I always appreciate your posts. I use glue to the handstitched bags either; the first is silicone glue and I glue the welt with contact cement; if I stitch carefully it doesn`t need seasoning (as it is in most cases) if is there any pore, a little seasoning solves the problem.

[Tigrou]

Actually, I've checked my bag yesterday evening (Made by CJ Dixon, riveted) and couldn't spot any sign of sewing. I guess it is glued then riveted.

[uillmann]

I had a talk many years ago with Mike MacHarg on the subject. He had made gazillions of sewn leather bags, and in that regard was undoubtedly the most knowledgeable man on the planet. (It would be great if we could buy a sewn MacHarg/Dominion leather bag today!) After switching to rivets because of tendon problems with his hands, he maintained that rivets were more airtight. I never had any problems with sewn bags being leaky, and sewed quite a few myself. I found that it was the leather that eventually began to leak, but not so much the seam. Anyway, he agreed with me that a sewn bag was a more elegant product. At least we have L&M.

[Marcelo Muttis]

Agree with you Uillmann on the leaky leather ( specially near the seam) I solved the that issue giving it a treatment with some rooftop product, but before making the bag.

[hpinson]

The fewer the holes in your hull, the less likely you are to sink...

[caubeen]

Just to add another little bit of controversy. I recently had a new bag made by Michael MacHarg, and since he offered either riveted or machine sewn, and said both were equal in airtightness, I chose the machine stitching for the "look". So far, it is as tight as a drum.

[hpinson]

Seriously, I've had good luck with both. Hand stitching is really hard on the hands, and takes a LOT longer than riveting. It seems important that the heavy thread be waxed (Kevlar thread???), that the seam is drawn very tight, and that holes are well-sealed with some compound. I see it similar to stitched bellows-- nice if you can account for the time and effort that it takes, or have aesthetic reasons for doing so.

I would like to try stitching on a Sailrite sewing machine, though can't really justify the $800 US cost of such an experiment.

http://www.sailrite.com/

I saw a Toro 3000 leather sewing machine demonstration (saddle makers in New Mexico use them), and it will do a nice, tight, double-thread stitch. The cost of the machine is very high, similar to a good wood lathe, and you would have to be in volume production to justify that cost.

http://www.a1sewingmachine.com/artisantoro3000.html

Some say that the machine does not produce a tight enough stitch, but I don't think that true. I've even had success with a sewing awl, (given a lot of practice getting the stitching technique just right and tight).

I suspect that L&M uses something like the Toro, though they claim to be "Hand Stitched". The L&M double stitch looks too uniform to be entirely stitched by hand. And the cost of the L&M bags is so low... Just conjecture though... I don't really know. Perhaps they are subcontracting the work at a very low hourly rate.

For now it's rivets for me. It does not seem unattractive so long as some effort is made to match size and color with bellows tacks. Also, there does seem less to fail. Aesthetically, some will have their preferences I suppose.

All the best,

[billh]

I suspect that L&M uses something like the Toro, though they claim to be "Hand Stitched". The L&M double stitch looks too uniform to be entirely stitched by hand. And the cost of the L&M bags is so low... Just conjecture though... I don't really know. Perhaps they are subcontracting the work at a very low hourly rate.

I am not aware that any machine can do a genuine saddle stitch - the double needles have to cross repeatedly - and the L&M bags do seem to be saddle stitched. I reckon I'll take a closer look to be sure. The Toro looks like a lockstitch machine, albeit a beefy one.

The L&M bags are expensive enough that I think they could be paying a reasonable rate, too.

Bill

[uillmann]

I was led to believe, (by whom I do not remember,) that L&M bags are made by incarcerated craftsmen in Canada's correctional facilities. They do seem to be well made, and saddle stitched.

Bags are made either with:

#3 glovers needles without an awl,

or, MUCH more preferably,

#1 harness needles with an awl. From MacHarg's suggestions, the awl is ground to an extremely fine diamond shaped cross section, and shortened in length. Start with a good quality awl from, say, Osborne, and grind it away almost 'til there is nothing left of it. The harness needles will stretch the hole some as they go through, but being blunt, will not enlarge it.

I, myself, never used the harness needles and awl method, but instead used the glovers needles in the same way that I used to sew bellows. Glover's needles will work for bags, but it is harder to get that perfect seam. While stitching with glover's needles , you might like to pull the first needle thread through just past the 6" or so bend, then use that stitch to guide the second needle through. As the second needle goes through, back the first thread out alongside the tip of the second needle in order to prevent splitting the thread of the first half of the stitch. Wax up repeatedly near the welt after every few stitches, and pull every stitch as tight as possible. A stitching horse, or at least a pony, is a must. Welts and bags can be glued with Duall 88 or the like, (if you are doing a lot of sewing,) or maybe Barge cement in a convenient tube (or some such equivalent,) for one-offs. For a neat look, trim welts with a razor sharp french channel skiver or something, but beware of the stitches. Don't get glue on the welt past the stitches - it makes a clean trimming nearly impossible. You can be a little sloppier inside the bag proper without much adverse effect. A plastic glue roller bottle works well if you don't mind cleaning it up or discarding it afterwards. If you are making lots of bags, use a 6' straight edge to cut a whole hide down it's length into perfect neat strips for welts. If you are just making one bag, you can squeeze a welt or two out of the edge nearest the back edge of the hide. One average hide (side) will make two bags, two welts, a double leather gusset bellows and pads, and a generous apron, all for about 120 bucks.

Nyltex makes a reasonable thread for the purpose, and must be used for bellows, however my understanding is that a 5 or 6 cord flax that is doubled up is less stretchy, and is considered to be the pinnacle of craftsmanship for bags. Don't try using flax for a bellows, though, because if the thread breaks, you're f@%*&d.

[Jumper]

Thanks, Mark. Lots of good information there.

What sort of leather have you used? I tried the Tandy "Tanners Select Chap Side" leather I'd seen recommended, and it turned out to be too heavy to use for a double bellows gusset

Might be OK for bags, though.

[rorybbellows]

Would it be possible to take a bag to a shoemakers/repairer who has a heavy duty sowing machine and get him to sow the bag ?

RORY