Rationalising the 19th century grip

[Terry McGee]

I haven't been playing much lately - it's pretty quiet down here on the NSW South Coast in winter! But spring is busting out all over, and a young man's thoughts turn to getting in a few tunes ...

Well, perhaps not so young, and his creaky old hands are rediscovering their weaknesses. It's lead me to wonder again how Nicholson (in particular) and the 19th century at large arrived at how they held our kind of flute. So I did a few experiments, which I invite you to try and to report back on.

We start from the premise that, to play an 8-key flute reliably, you need to keep the left thumb and right fourth finger free to operate Bb and Eb. (I can hear Irish players who don't have those keys or need for them turning off in droves! But stick with it for the moment - you might still learn something to your advantage.). So we're going to keep them completely off the flute for the moment.

Take up the flute, holding it in the 19th century style in a three point grip:
- flute head under lip
- base of L1 presses inwards (and that's the base, not further up the finger)
- right thumb presses outwards (nail pointing downward, thumb slightly bent, area just below tip contacts the flute somewhat up the side, not under. Pressing out, not up).
- nothing else touching!

Keep the RH fingers up off the flute for the moment - we're going to optimise the LH first. Play B-C#-B-C# repeatedly, with all other fingers off the flute, apart from the base of L1 and the tip of Rthumb. As you play, you'll probably find the flute twists, making maintaining a good embouchure difficult.

Now rotate the LH section outwards (or rotate the head inwards) until you find a position where playing B-C# doesn't twist the flute. Now try wiggling L1, L2 and L3 on and off their holes, and make any further alterations needed to head rotation to minimise twisting.

Now turn your attention to the RH. If the RH holes are in line with the LH, I suspect you will find closing them tends to render the Rthumb grip insecure. Rotate the RH further outwards until the holes are more opposite where your thumb is. Again try wiggling your fingers on and off the holes while playing, and trim the rotation until you get minimum disturbance.

You'll probably feel that your right arm is unnaturally high, but you should also feel that your right hand fingers are straighter and less cramped. Check the mirror - no, you don't look like a gorilla.

Play like that for a bit, thumb and R4 flying around in the air, to get the hang of it. It's really rather good. Now reconnect L thumb and see that it's not really needed. It was only needed to prevent rotation - if there's no rotation, there's no need for the thumb. Great news for those thumb-grip-of-death players with aching thumb muscles! Just lift the thumb off and it can't cramp!

And reconnect R4 and find it isn't needed either. Your right hand is free, and uncramped. Great news for those with right hand cramping, or having difficulties with right hand ornaments.

And perhaps never wonder again how the great Mr Nicholson arrived at his setup (as illustrated by the line-up dots set into the flute)



(See http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Nicholson's%20Flute.htm for the full story on Nicholson's flutes.)

Terry

[Rob Sharer]

Every tinker has his own way of dancing....


Rob

[Andrew Hollom]

Terry,

This is all well and good, and may even be true, but how did Robert Sidney Pratten manage this feat? I suspect that not all flautists that used a flute that had a joint between the top and bottom 3 holes had them adjusted as Nicholson did, and without this joint it would have been impossible anyway. I have tried using this type of grip, but it makes it feel like I'm playing a completely new instrument, so I quickly revert! I guess I need more patience, or knowledge of how Robert Sidney managed it.

Andrew.

[celticmodes]

A timely post. I was suffering some cramping on my Reviol and playing around with thumb placement. I found resting my thumb higher up worked great and relieved the cramp. He uses a nice trick of recessing the Bb key so you can just roll on to it. I realized I didn't need to press the key with the end of my thumb but instead could roll onto it with the side of my thumb very efficiently.

I'll re-read this post when I get home and try the other things you're talking about. I'm still having a hard time not wanting to keep my Eb key depressed out of school boy boehm habit but it messes up the E intonation. Leaving the pinky to fly around until it's needed is a hard habit for me to learn.

[Gabriel]

Timely as well here, both hands started to ache again after a few months of silence. I however also wonder how this grip could be transferred to a Prattenesque flute, as I have one.

[flutefry]

The 3 point grip (lip, upper hand first finger base, lower hand thumb tip) is transferrable to Pratten, and the left/upper hand issue is solved by rolling the head joint, so that's also transferrable to the Pratten. As the grip being discussed allows both thumbs to be free, I predict that many people will find this grip is better for both hands even if one can't rotate the bottom joint out.

My very limited experience is that hand fatigue/cramping is often caused by gripping the flute with the thumbs. Holding the flute this way forces both the thumb and handle muscles to contract all the time. This is tiring, and makes it harder to have the fingers move freely. One can decrease the tension by holding the flute lightly and avoiding "death grip", but one can't eliminate the tension.

The other thing I notice is that those who use the base of their first finger to hold the flute often have the base of the first finger too far down the flute (ie opposite the first hole), so that their hand is bent back towards their wrist. Looking at the picture Terry provided, you can see that it's possible to have the base of the first finger much higher up the flute towards the headjoint. This has the effect of straightening the upper wrist, which improves the other common source of upper hand problems.

To achieve placement of the first finger base as high up the flute as is practical, try placing the pad of the third finger on its hole first and flatten out the third finger as much as possible. This has the effect of pushing the base of the first finger up the flute towards the head joint. Then bend the first and second fingers as necessary to cover their holes. Most people naturally put down the first finger first, and the third finger last, and end up with the third finger a little bent/or the middle of the top joint of the third finger on the hole, and thus end up with a bent wrist.

Cheers,
Hugh

Edited for typos

[Terry McGee]

Yes, if I set the LH and RH of my Rudall style flute in line, emulating a Pratten's style flute, I can still play with the 19th century grip and get the benefit of it. I find it helps to keep my left arm down into my chest.

Rockstro, who was one of the last to recommend this hold was playing Boehm-style flutes with a single piece body. His advice is at:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rocksto_on_ ... flute.html

There have been one-piece-body flutes reported (Nicholson's from memory) that have had the LH-RH offset made permanently into them. Some people are confident!

Terry

[david_h]

Has anyone ever described how flute playing hand (especially a left one) is working from an anatomical and engineering angle ? Tendons and levers and like things. Despite the amount of good stuff on this forum and elsewhere it was only when I happened to look at an illustration in an laymans book on anatomy that I got to thinking about the muscles in the palm of the hand that seem to do the side-to-side movements of the fingers. If we waggle our fingers up and down at high speed with our our hand in a new position do those those muscles in the hand have to learn to steer the fingers differently ? Should the work they are doing be thought about along with wrist angle etc ? What are they doing during a 'death grip'.

[flutefry]

I'm no anatomist. But one can figure most stuff out by moving things and seeing what flexes. There's some catches because sometimes the muscle is attached to a tendon, so the muscle and the bit being moved can be separated (your bicep and tricep move your forearm in opposite ways, but are located on your upper arm).

When I curling my fingers I feel contraction of the muscles on the underside of the finger. I also feel tendons moving on the non-hairy side of my wrist, and these tendons are being operated by muscles in my forearm. When I lift a finger, I see the tendon on the back of my hand move, and feel muscles move in my forearm. I also feel muscles in the palm of my hand stretch/relax.

When I pinch something with thumb and forefinger I see big muscle between the 1st and second metacarpals contract, and the big muscle at the base of my thumb contracts. The muscles on the underside (non-airy) of my finger also contract. I'd guess that it's these muscles that when the thumb and finger ends are both gripping the flute.

As a little experiment, imagine that you have a tennis ball-sized heavy object in your hand. Should feel your muscles between the metacarpals and in your palm contract. Now try wiggling your fingers while imagining you are holding a heavy ball. You should notice that wiggling doesn't happen or happen easily unless the muscles in your hand relax so the muscles in your forearm can mover your fingers.

I am guessing that in a bad death grip, contraction in the hand impedes tendon movement.

Try one more experiment. Bend your hand back towards your wrist. Wiggle your fingers. Mine don't wiggle as freely.

Expanding my fingers sideways, I see muscles between my first finger and thumb and on the outside edge contracting. I would assume that there are equivalent muscles between my metacarpals. Can't really see muscles in my palm moving. Stretching a lot does seem to make finger waggling harder.

Hugh

[david_h]

Tricky bit is working out what is a tendon and a what is a local muscle. The muscles in the palm of the hand are well protected by something tough that had a label in the anatomy book, which I think is why it is not obvious they are there.

I have this feeling that if flute playing was an olympic sport someone would have written a masters thesis on what the hand was doing. Go to a sports shop to buy even a pair of running shoes and you can get put on a rolling road and videoed from various angles to get an idea of how your feet work. But we have to rely mainly on the keen observations of people in the 19C, and wise words from people likes of Terry who have thought about it a lot.

FWIW I am now an almost permanent left thumb dangler.

[Trip-]

With my keyless Prattenesque I never fix the holes in line with the embouchure... or else my left elbow can hit somebody in front of me. But then I hold it the pipers way anyway, which means my left thumb is never free...
Pipers holding (the way I hold it anyway) you also have a 3 point grip: the lip, the left thumb pressing upward-inward and the right pinky pressing downward-outward. So basicly you might as well have an almost free right thumb. Problem is the right fingers don't have an anchor point when the thumb is free in the air.

Terry, I should ask for a Bb key for the right thumb

[rama]

Has anyone ever described how flute playing hand (especially a left one) is working from an anatomical and engineering angle ? Tendons and levers and like things.

Hand Anatomy 101
Pianist's Injuries: Movement Retraining is the Key to Recovery

[david_h]

I hope your first link didn't turn people of Terry's thread rama. Seems like the pianists have looked into it.

So I did a few experiments, which I invite you to try and to report back on.

Will do.

[kirikee]

Thanks Terry that's very interesting. I like the idea of the line-up dots too, I think I'd like them on my flute (maybe I'll try sticking something on!).

It can be difficult to get to grips with descriptions of grips and I'm afraid I don't quite understand this: (particularly the bit about the nail pointing downwards)

- right thumb presses outwards (nail pointing downward, thumb slightly bent, area just below tip contacts the flute somewhat up the side, not under. Pressing out, not up).

Maybe I should read your page on Rockstro again.

All the best, Hugh

[lesl]

It can be difficult to get to grips with descriptions of grips

I turned the flute body pieces outwards to match the photos first. (Picture, 1000, etc.) Then picked up flute, *then* re-read Terry's Rockstro instructions to see if my hands were in the same places as he suggests- it's pretty close to what you'd naturally do to cover the holes in this position. Once you start playing, the difference is in how you balance the flute to press inwards onto your lip. I've had trouble maintaining this balance on a one piece body while playing certain notes, but my plastic Forbes has the extra joint.

Could I just add I like to use the term balance instead of grip. That way there's less heavy gripping..