On Being In Tune

[dfernandez77]

The silver flute is very focused, but the Irish flute's tone is ...not! I don't know the word!

I think "complex" is the nice word.

It is true about whistles though, tough to find one tuned right on. Never had a problem with an Overton, Reyburn, Sweet, Thin Weasel, or Water Weasel in that regard.

[plunk111]

As I said in another thread, I always tune to G... Not sure why, but most people can find a G on their instruments easier - especially guitars! Never thought of it being the "middle road" note, but I guess it is. I would never tune a wooden flute to a A or an F# for reasons mentioned above.

Pat

[Pyroh]

Hm, weird she did take it badly. Anyway, as said, it indeed is out of tune. I think that you can mix two tracks, then take one of them, shift it 20 cents down, export into mp3, then shift it 40 cents up (so it's 20 cents up the normal), give her all three versions (those + the one in tune) and ask her, if that one with one track high pitched isn't out of tune.

I used to play classical guitar, and no mention about anything like she says.

Some clasically educated players are somewhat stuck up, knowing everything better etc. - isn't it the case?

[s1m0n]

The comment: after a tune in a group setting, I asked her if she could hear how sharp she was - it was enough so that some people had stopped playing mid-tune and were looking at her - and she said, "No. But better to be sharp than out of tune."

I don't think she's deliberately playing sharp, despite this comment. I think she can't hear the sharp and you can't hear the irony.

In other words, I think she was surprised and embarassed becaused she thought she was doing OK, and said this as a cover for her embarassment.

[Nanohedron]

The comment: after a tune in a group setting, I asked her if she could hear how sharp she was - it was enough so that some people had stopped playing mid-tune and were looking at her - and she said, "No. But better to be sharp than out of tune."

I don't think she's deliberately playing sharp, despite this comment. I think she can't hear the sharp and you can't hear the irony.

In other words, I think she was surprised and embarassed becaused she thought she was doing OK, and said this as a cover for her embarassment.

Yes, I thought of the embarrassment cover-up factor. I think that should have been obvious; recall my acknowledgment of my less-than-thoughtful approach in raising the issue. Mea culpa. That hadn't anything directly to do with my original question in this thread, and moreover I never said - or even thought - that she was playing sharp deliberately. Perhaps you could give me the benefit of the doubt in considering the possibility that my original question really was concerned with whether she might have had, in her musical training background, some basis for a comment that I found to be, frankly, rather bizarre. THAT was what I was trying to find out first off. You know: erring on the side of caution and eliminating possibilities. Nothing more, nothing less.

And you're right. I didn't hear any irony there, and I still don't. What I do hear is a bruised ego covering for itself as best as it could. Mea culpa again. You can bet I'll remember this episode and be taking quite a different tack with that sort of thing from now on.

But I'd like to move on, now. How do we hear how we are, or are not, in tune?

[Denny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a0_9baKQzU

[Nanohedron]

The silver flute is very focused, but the Irish flute's tone is ...not! I don't know the word!

Daniel's use of "complex" is good, I think. "Broad" or "colored" are words I sometimes use, and "woody" and "reedy" are bandied about, too. Once I had someone asking, based on its tone, if I was playing some type of oboe.

A sound producer once asked about a particular accomplished ITM fluteplayer's tone (not me!), wondering why it was "so quinty". I'd never heard the term before, and I eventually realised he was referring to the extra harmonics going on with any given note and with certain techniques that make that sort of thing really stand out. I tried to assure him that it was a sought-after aesthetic quality in this case, and not a sign of bad playing, or a bad flute. It seemed to me he suspected that I was not quite right in the head about that.

It would be great if someone who has played both types of flutes for a long time could post a bit about that sometime. I think I may actually be playing just fine (no one has complained so far..!) but I am so used to that really old uptight voice in my head..."if you're not perfectly in tune you will lose your scholarship" Aauuggh!

If it helps any, I'm always listening to see if I'm in tune. I hate being out of tune. Hate it.

If no one's complaining, could be you're just fine.

[benhall.1]

But I'd like to move on, now. How do we hear how we are, or are not, in tune?

I think it's very difficult. On any instrument. As a n00b fluter, I find that flute has its own difficulties, of intonation, and of hearing one's intonation. But ... I always bear in mind the many sessions, in Ireland and elsewhere, that have been ruined by fluters playing consistently sharp, and, somehow or other, I am determined not to be that sort of fluter, as I learn to play this thing.

I took my flute to a session last night for the first time, and played it quite a bit. I know that I started out a bit flat, but I adjusted the slide, and came up to concert, in line with everyone else. It took me some listening to do, and it meant more adjustment of my embouchure than I was prepared for - controlling a tendency to sharpness in the upper octave whilst bringing up to pitch the lowest notes - but it can be done, provided you are prepared to listen all the time you're playing.

Ain't that the same (sort of) on any instrument?

[s1m0n]

And you're right. I didn't hear any irony there, and I still don't.

The irony is that playing sharp is playing out of tune.

How do we hear how we are, or are not, in tune?

Does she know that a cold flute goes out of tune once it's a wet flute? If not, tell her, and suggest that she'll need to retune after the first set. Used right, you can use this to get her to retune often without getting her back up. You also might want to explain that flute usually sounds differently to the player because of where they have to be in relation to it, so she should try playing into a corner to hear the difference.

[Nanohedron]

...it can be done, provided you are prepared to listen all the time you're playing.

For my satisfaction, I have to do that overall until I know the stick's warmed up and found its level. After that, I pay attention to those notes I have to play into tune. I think listening to oneself in relation to others is key, no question. I don't think of it as a chore.

I'm still wondering about relative ability to hear what is in tune, and what isn't.

Ain't that the same (sort of) on any instrument?

Free reeds, not so much.

[benhall.1]

True. Free reeds. Perhaps I should have specified musical instrument.

[Nanohedron]

And you're right. I didn't hear any irony there, and I still don't.

The irony is that playing sharp is playing out of tune.

Yeah, that I get, only the irony wasn't hers. She was dead serious for whatever reason. I guess you'll just have to trust me on this one.

How do we hear how we are, or are not, in tune?

Does she know that a cold flute goes out of tune once it's a wet flute? If not, tell her, and suggest that she'll need to retune after the first set. Used right, you can use this to get her to retune often without getting her back up. You also might want to explain that flute usually sounds differently to the player because of where they have to be in relation to it, so she should try playing into a corner to hear the difference.

She knows about warmup and cooldown, being a seasoned trombone player. Could be she's not been remembering that, though, new toy and all. Here's some more info about the flute: at first I, and another fluter as well, thought she'd mistakenly gotten herself an Eb flute, so she checked with the maker, and it turns out that while it does play beautifully in Eb, it's made to be played as a D instrument! The trick is that you have to really play down into the embouchure cut, and it works famously. I never thought to see the like - Eb and D with the same body - but it works. That's some killa embouchure cut.

So she knows - it was demonstrated to her, and she's done it herself - what she needs to do to get into good pitch. She has shown that she can get decent tone, for her level, playing that way, but it looks like she gets careless and start playing more across the cut, and so sharpens up that way, and on that flute the difference is big. I've reminded her from time to time to remember to play more down into the cut, the beast being what it is, or otherwise use the tuning slide more. I have not been harping at her about this - I've probably only brought it up about three, maybe four times in a couple of months' time, and in a kindly way at that - but she's started getting irritated with me, and now the feathers are really ruffled.

To repeat, it's not just a tad sharp, but way sharp. No doubt she's not been hearing herself, being flushed with the enjoyment of playing her new flute, but I can't rest easy letting that slide. Other people might not be as charitable about it later on, and I've been trying to help her forestall that eventuality best as I know how.

Maybe the exercise of playing into a corner could help. It's just that it's baffling to me how one can be a quarter tone sharp, or even more, to everyone else and not hear that.

Quite frankly, she was in such a huff that I'd be surprised if she ever even came back at this point, which is something I greatly regret considering how I could have perhaps better handled things.

[SteveShaw]

True. Free reeds. Perhaps I should have specified musical instrument.

Yay, sour grapes because you chose the wrong week to come to Kernow...

[s1m0n]

And you're right. I didn't hear any irony there, and I still don't.

The irony is that playing sharp is playing out of tune.

Yeah, that I get, only the irony wasn't hers. She was dead serious for whatever reason. I guess you'll just have to trust me on this one.

You can be quoting and be ironic at the same time, and deadpan irony is the finest kind.

Are you really trying to claim that she takes her statement literally and believes that playing sharp isn't playing out of tune?

[s1m0n]

True. Free reeds. Perhaps I should have specified musical instrument.
:lol:

Yay, sour grapes because you chose the wrong week to come to Kernow.

There's a right week?