Josie McDermott's Flute

[lazyleft]

Simple question really...anyone out there know what flute/s Mr.McDermott was playing when he recorded the 'Darby's Farewell' album.

Like most questions however it's motivation is perhaps not so simple. I recently acquired a somewhat dilapidated Nach Meyer eight key which I had quite honestly believed would be virtually unplayable. Turns out it is really not too bad. However, compared to my Copley keyless it is not only a bitch to play, but is significantly different in terms of tone and responsiveness. The Copley is, in my hands at least, very reedy, very dark. The Nach Meyer is more 'breathy' and very much sweeter in tone. It was kind of a nostalgic sound for me. Definitely closer in tone to Mcdermott's flute than my Copley. It took me back to those infuriating antiques that I played in my youth and of course to Josie's playing which has always represented to me the best in Irish music.

I guess this is a question, or many questions, about the 'fashionability' of a particular quality of tone. In some ways I am assuming that the reedier tone has become more fashionable in recent years. I am probabably wrong in that assumption, but although I can think of players from the past who definitly played with a very reedy tone ( Paddy Carty would be an obvious example ) I can't off the top of my head think of a contemporary flute player that doesn't sound reedy in comparison to someone like McDermott who only borders on reediness in my opinion.

If it is the case that there is a trend towards playing with a reedier tone ( which inevitably effects style ) then is it also the case that modern makers might also be designing flutes with that tone in mind? And did makers in the past have a different 'sound' in mind when designing their flutes? I know that I will be told that it is the player and not the flute that determines the tone. This is quite true of course. However the Copley lends itself more easily to a reedy tone than does the Nach Mayer, or the Liddle that I played twenty years ago. By the same token the older flutes can be reedy but seem to me to play more easily in a manner that is lighter.

This is not an attempt to start some kind of argument about 'what tone is best' etc, simply hoping that others have had thoughts in similar directions and can maybe answer some of my questions and hopefully create more questions.

To end this I will only add for any one that is interested, that my Copley, blackwood, without slide or keys, is undoubtedly the most satisfying flute I have ever owned. It is, and will remain my primary instrument for many years to come.

I think I am spending too much time with my flutes...better go get drunk or something .

Thanks
L.L

[crookedtune]

Hmmmm....well, I think there is a trend toward better-built and higher-quality flutes, of which the Copley is one. (I too play a blackwood Copley slideless, keyless as well as a mopane Burns slideless, keyless). Players at all levels can now usually get their hands on a very good modern flute, so the 'infuriating antiques' may be getting less play. That might contribute to the reedier sound you feel you're hearing in modern playing.

But ultimately, we agree that the player defines the sound.

[Cathy Wilde]

Sorry, but I think "better built and higher quality" is a poor choice of words. A goodly number of the old flutes were exceptionally well-built, as are a goodly number of the new flutes. Though I suspect there were flutes that were the equivalent of Pakistani flutes then (probably things from mail-order catalogs) as now, many of the "auld-time" flutes were crafted to the nth degree.

Orchestras have gotten louder, tuning has shifted, electricity has gotten accessible to most everyone, tools have gotten more modern, tuners have gotten electronic, calibration is the norm, microphones have been invented, sine waves can be seen and mapped, sound studios and concert halls have been "acoustically engineered," recordings exist that can be studied, and information can be shared with lightning speed ... all this affects a lot of not only how a flute is made but how a maker can go about engineering the sound he or she wants.

Finally, don't forget a lot of those flutes on those old recordings are leaky as all get-out, held together with hose clamps, cracks filled with wax, tuning slides stuck with glue, etc. Working around that can affect your tone a little ... but that doesn't mean those were bad flutes; just in bad repair.

It's the same today, though IMO I think there's more latitude for experimentation -- if nothing else b/c technology allows folks to screw up and start over faster and thus develop designs faster.

Just my .01 (adjusted for market performance) ...

P.S. Never thought of Carty as reedy. FWIW, he played an old Radcliff; a no-name maybe?

[rama]

i believe josie may have played an old german flute.
generally speaking, those antique geezer flutes were made for a much more broader range of notes spanning 3 octaves. modern irish flutes focusing in on covering just the lower 2 octaves. tuning always has compromises to contend with. to tune a broader range of notes means a few more anomalies, creating some veiled notes, and a need to venting using keys and a couple notes that are easily blown out of tune by today's standards. all this translates into less power but covering a broader range. and also many older flutes were pitched higher a442-452 etc. and itm players pulled out the tuning slide pretty far to try to get them to play at a440. again affecting the power of tone.
modern irish flutes are clearly a better design for today's itm playing. but there is nothing like the charm of a geezer flute. personally i like their tuning, the slightly higher pitch, and overall sound but have found for all intent and practicality that they can be feisty buggers.

[crookedtune]

Sorry, but I think "better built and higher quality" is a poor choice of words. A goodly number of the old flutes were exceptionally well-built, as are a goodly number of the new flutes.

I didn't mean to say there weren't good flutes made 100-200 years ago. We all know there were. My point was that we have a lot more choice now among good modern flutes, and (generally) have the ways and means to buy, sell, trade and test-drive them more easily. I'll venture that VERY few of us spend our entire playing careers with only one instrument nowadays.

[nohoval_turrets]

There's a picture of Josie and his flute in Grey Larsen's book (p. 389). It's hard to make out the details, but it doesn't look like the typical German flute to me. Certainly it doesn't have the metal end-caps, but they don't all have that. Definitely a simple system 8-key flute though.

On the back of my old copy of his CD Darby's Farewell, there's another picture that's hard to make out exactly, where he seems to be playing a different flute with a metal collar around the embouchure area. Again it doesn't look typically German to me, but it's hard to be sure.

[Rob Sharer]

Just had a quick squizz at the pic in Grey's book, and it looks more like an English-type flute than an German, all right. It would be nice to see a better version of the same photo.

Rob

[Gordon]

I still think Rama's point is still the most valid, whether it was a German flute or not.. Many of the common old flutes, which weren't necessarily the best of the English big-holed flutes, regardless, were made to play 3 octaves and had smaller holes and bore. I started out studying with Jack Coen, who played a beat up old English thing, and he sold me my first wooden flute, a decently playable German flute. I sound(ed) much more like Jack, tone-wise, on that flute and - more importantly, probably - could mimic his ornaments and playing style better on that old flute than on my next, a Hammy Pratten. Playing with others on the German flute, against fiddles, and other instruments, is harder in some ways, because of the tuning issues and lower volume, but if you let the sound be what it is, it works just fine. A different, older sound, far more an aquired-taste kind of thing - the more you listen to the older players, the more acceptable that sound is. Whether it's a change in taste or something else, most modern flutes, especially those of the Pratten persuasion (and many tweaked modern Rudall types, and those in between) emphasize a more perfect 2 octave tuning, a beefier bottom, and are far more powerful, tonally, which ultimately changes the way players approach the music.

[Rob Sharer]

I still think Rama's point is still the most valid, whether it was a German flute or not.

I know you're married, but I still love you still...



Rob

[Terry McGee]

Some of us are old enough to have been in the same room as Josie, and, probably more reliably, to have "Darby's Farewell" in LP form. The album cover features four photos, three with flute and one with whistle. The flute is the same (indeed the room is the same) in all three photos. It's a first half 19th century English 8-key, ie Rudall-styled. Dark cocus, with a silver lip plate running right around the head. The images are too dark to make out the size of holes. Of course, we can't be sure that this is the flute on the recording; the record notes make no mention of the instrument.

Many recordings of the period are a bit suss, tone-quality wise (eg Triona Ni Dhomhnail's "Do you love an apple"), but this recording includes some of Josie's singing, and these tracks are warm and sonorous. By comparison, I'd characterise the flute tracks as not so clear, with quite a bit of chiff. Perhaps Josie wasn't as "genetically predisposed to flute" as some lucky players are. Bottom notes are there but not powerful. Or it could be that the flute wasn't performing at full power, though no visible sign of hose clips or tape. It's almost too good a flute for an Irish player of those days! One is inclined to suspect the hand of Paul Davis.

If that is the flute Josie plays on the album, the metal lip plate might be in some way part of the story. I've often felt that flutes with these are less sonorous than flutes with wooden edges. (I'd be interested to hear if any others stoutly agree or disagree.) If this is so, it's hard to imagine why, excepting where movement of the wood has misaligned the various layers of the sandwich, in which case it's very easy to see why!

But if Josie's tone is not as ravishing as say Colm O'Donnel's, he sure makes up with it in every other respect!

Terry

[lazyleft]

and he sold me my first wooden flute, a decently playable German flute. I sound(ed) much more like Jack, tone-wise, on that flute and - more importantly, probably - could mimic his ornaments and playing style better on that old flute than on my next, a Hammy Pratten. Playing with others on the German flute, against fiddles, and other instruments, is harder in some ways, because of the tuning issues and lower volume, but if you let the sound be what it is, it works just fine. A different, older sound, far more an aquired-taste kind of thing - the more you listen to the older players, the more acceptable that sound is.

Thanks for the input. It is interesting to me that you found ornamention was easier to mimic. I have found the same to be true. The fact that playing style is altered to some extent on an old flute is not particularly surprising, but why ornamention sounds so different is baffling to me, particularly since the older flute is much harder to fill and still gives me a lot more pop than my new flute.

But if Josie's tone is not as ravishing as say Colm O'Donnel's, he sure makes up with it in every other respect![/quote]

I couldn't agree more Terry, other than to add that what could be deemed as imperfections in older styles of playing are so integrated into the style and the tune that they are no longer imperfections but the opposite.

Thanks to those who have attempted to find out what Josies flute was. I remembered there being a photo of Josie with flute on the original L.P of 'Darby's Farewell', but I no longer have a copy and the c.d release only shows him with his Clarke.

Thought I would just add as well that if there are any newbies reading these praises of old flutes who might be tempted to buy one as their first flute - please don't. A new flute from a good maker will be far less frustrating. The old flutes could be very hard work and disheartening at times.Personally I swore I'd never get another one - I've sworn off booze quite a few times as well with about as much success!! My Copley is a neccesity. The old German an affordable luxury, one that has been teaching me a few things and which has had some unexpected benefits (such as improved tone on my Copley) but still just a luxury.

Thanks to everyone for their input.
Nate

[Gordon]

I still think Rama's point is still the most valid, whether it was a German flute or not.

I know you're married, but I still love you still...



Rob

Good to know, in case the 28 years we've put in don't work out...

[daiv]

If it is the case that there is a trend towards playing with a reedier tone ( which inevitably effects style ) then is it also the case that modern makers might also be designing flutes with that tone in mind? And did makers in the past have a different 'sound' in mind when designing their flutes?

makers in the past had the same tone quality in mind. here is a quote from charles nicholson:

The tone ought to be as reedy as possible, as much like that of the hautboy [oboe] as you can get, it, but embodying the round mellowness of the clarionet.

(source http://mcgee-flutes.com/Nicholson_on_Tone.htm ).

so, i cannot say that in irish music the trends have not changed. however, i can say that the reedy and aggressive tone which is all the rage is actually how the flutes were designed to be played. if you don't know who nicholson is, he was the guy who really solidified the english playing, and he was such an impressively loud and technically proficient player that theobald boehm decided to invent the modern, silver flute in order to compete with him and level the playing field.

as an aside, i am also tired of hearing this new thing about "not rolling in your headjoint," as the flutes were originally designed to be played rolled in. i met someone a couple months ago who was a solid player, but did not have a strong tone. i could see his lips reaching for the hole, and it was apparent he should try to at least try to roll in the headjoint, which would probably have made his tone instantly better. i suggested it to him, and he refused to do it, because some big player at a workshop had told him never to do it.

[daiv]

i believe josie may have played an old german flute.
generally speaking, those antique geezer flutes were made for a much more broader range of notes spanning 3 octaves. modern irish flutes focusing in on covering just the lower 2 octaves. tuning always has compromises to contend with. to tune a broader range of notes means a few more anomalies, creating some veiled notes, and a need to venting using keys and a couple notes that are easily blown out of tune by today's standards. all this translates into less power but covering a broader range. and also many older flutes were pitched higher a442-452 etc. and itm players pulled out the tuning slide pretty far to try to get them to play at a440. again affecting the power of tone.
modern irish flutes are clearly a better design for today's itm playing. but there is nothing like the charm of a geezer flute. personally i like their tuning, the slightly higher pitch, and overall sound but have found for all intent and practicality that they can be feisty buggers.

does that mean that a boosey pratten does not have a lot of power due to it's 3 octave, chromatic intentions?

[rama]

i believe you may be reading too far into it, maybe out of context. i think we are talking about geezer fluters and what might be contributing factors behind the tone of many of them, as compared to modern made flute like a copley or modern players with what appears to be a beefier tone .
i was hitting at the idea that to make a flute with a 3 range octave there appears to be some compromises in the tuning of some notes to make that all happen; and that in turn seems to effect the power of individual notes because some notes are now more apt to be blown out of tune (b.a.e) if they were blown powerfully without restraint or regard to that type of tuning. and then add to that mix the fact that some geezer flutes were higher pitched so the hj was pulled way out in an effort to play a440. so now you have a flute w/ the hj pulled way out, perhaps a sharp 'b', sharp 'a' , or maybe flat f#, sharp/veiled 'e') etc. compared to modern designs where you can give many of them a good puff and they are not as easily blown out of tune because these anomalies have seemingly been ironed out.