Introduction

[peeplj]

A good source for some listening for you: the "Flute Geezers" recordings.

You can learn a great deal about flute playing by listening to these recordings.

--James

[Cork]

...Most ITM players use the tongue or glottal stops as well, but usually far less than any classical musician...

It's true that ITM relies heavily on finger articulation, and far less on tonguing.

However, perhaps glottal stops could call for some explanation.

(Basically, glottal stop = choke.)

[Ceili_whistle_man]

Hi MeaghanEryn, and welcome,
I've just grabbed my cold flute and run straight through the first part of 'Banish Misfortune'. Cork, here is a little clip of me playing legato and then playing with exaggerated glottal stops.
http://www.box.net/shared/7upexkeu6v
Here I am tonguing, this is really hard for me as I don't tongue that often, so it is difficult to try to do it the whole way through a piece. I then play it somewhere near normal.
http://www.box.net/shared/mhzrof0rle

(edited to correct a case of mistaken identity, sorry Henke)

[Ceili_whistle_man]

As to what a glottal stop is...
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... ottal-stop and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop
Now although the sites above explain what it is in linguistic terms, how do we apply it in a musical sense? How does the glottal stop work in music?
I use 'uh-huh', although I don't actually say uh-huh, I use the physical action that my mouth uses to form that glottal stop that happens between 'uh' and 'huh'.
I also use 'beautiful', there are two stops in there, one just after the 'you' sound and another after the 'ti'. Try saying those words, then try playing using the type of stops that they create.
One tune that comes to mind would be the jig 'St.Patricks day', it starts off with a nice 'uh-huh uh-huh beautiful' phrase.
Another couple of words are 'put' and 'hot' a great one for punching out the bottom D really hard.
We pepper our everyday speech with glottal stops without being concious that we are doing it. There are lots of words out there with glottal stops in them, the trick is finding and understanding the mechanics of a few words whose physical shape would fit nicely around your playing.
I hope that helps.
Sorry for hijacking your thread MeaghanEryn, but I think this could help you in your playing. You just need to know that there are more interesting and better sounding ways to accentuate a tune than using tonguing alone. I think you also need to start playing legato, force yourself not to tongue. I am not saying don't ever tongue, just go cold turkey for a while and discover the other methods for articulating tunes, then in time it would be a matter of balancing out your articulation to suit each tune.
Good luck.

[MTGuru]

I also use 'beautiful', there are two stops in there, one just after the 'you' sound and another after the 'ti'.

That's funny, CWM. Maybe in Stralian, or Cockney. I hear exactly what you're talking about. But in standard North American English, and probably Meaghan's speech, there's not a glottal stop within a mile of "beautiful". Byoo-di-ful.

In fact, they're not peppered in NA at all, but fairly rare. Most commonly heard instead of "t" at the end of sentences or phrases, as when asking the question "What?" (= Wha'?). This actually makes it harder to describe glottal stops to Americans.

Except in certain pronunciations. My dad was Bronx Irish, and in his speech there was no "t" in words like "bottle" or "cattle"; just a big glottal stop in the middle.

Still, your basic helpful hints are well-made.

[Henke]

Hi MeaghanEryn, and welcome,
I've just grabbed my cold flute and run straight through the first part of 'Banish Misfortune'. Henke, here is a little clip of me playing legato and then playing with exaggerated glottal stops.
http://www.box.net/shared/7upexkeu6v
Here I am tonguing, this is really hard for me as I don't tongue that often, so it is difficult to try to do it the whole way through a piece. I then play it somewhere near normal.
http://www.box.net/shared/mhzrof0rle

okay. I don't completely understand the point of the demonstration as it was directed to me, but it was fairly interesting. I liked the first example best.

My advice to Meaghan and all other students of the Böhm flute who start playing the irish flute (and that would apply to re***der players who start playing the whistle as well) is to stop tonguing all together. Don't bother with the glottal stops eighter. For ITM, one should be able to play any tune, well articulated with just finger articulations before one can bring the tongue and glottal stops back into it and do it with good taste. IMHO, that is usually the key to start sounding "right" no matter how strange it may sound...

H&W
whisky

[Ceili_whistle_man]

Sorry Henke, I should have directed my reply to Cork, who quoted you in his post.
I need to lay off the whiskEy. (edited previous post to suit)

Yes MT, I realised that perhaps the folk with a north American accent would find it a little harder to spot those glottal stops. They are still there though, only a little softer.
Byoo-di-ful would still work, just don’t hang on the ‘oo’ and you will hear a soft stop, and straight after the ‘di’ is another harder glottal stop.
Bear in mind, I am Irish with a full blown Belfast accent, but I can still spot the stops in lots of English accented words so it is not that difficult to do no matter what your accent.
Your ‘wha’ is a very good example.
Maybe to play ITM you need to be able to play it with an accent?

[MeaghanEryn]

Hi everyone!

Thanks so much for your comments! They've been more than helpful...I've actually heard of a lot of them before (things like triplets being more like 2 16ths-1 8th, not as much tonguing, etc). I got most of my ornamentation ideas from a really neat site that I'm a little surprised no one has really mentioned yet (as far as I've seen, and I haven't seen everything on these forums!): http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/ It's more aimed at the whistle, though he does make mention to differences for flute players (i.e. not as much tonguing). I've periodically gone back to that site and realized I'd gotten lazy with certain things, but I didn't realize just how bad it was in my own playing!

No, us Canadians don't really use glottal stops in the word "beautiful", but I think I understand what you mean! In classical terms we usually talk about "throat-tonguing" or stopping the air with the throat...something little grade 6 band students tend to do without proper tonguing instruction! I'll definitely experiment and see what I can come up with...after a bit more practice I'm going to post a new version of Within a Mile of Dublin that, hopefully, shows some improvement!

[MeaghanEryn]

OK! Within a Mile of Dublin, take two. I tried turning it into mp3 but I'm not sure if it worked, so I'll put the m4a version up as well.

m4a: http://www.box.net/shared/gm00ahzqhu
mp3: http://www.box.net/shared/4o6zab2l8k

I know I tongued a couple times for sure, but I really tried to ornament instead as much as I could! Also I'm aware that a couple of spots weren't as solid as they could have been--clumsy fingers or experimental ornamentation or something...or maybe just me not being able to play something through once without flubbing it somewhere.

[celticmodes]

Welcome from one newbie to another. These guys are the experts. Some days I actually understand what they're saying. Others....not so much

[daiv]

there is a triplet on the page

Page?

If you're looking at a fiddle transcription, the D might be notated as a triplet representing a bowed treble, since the open string D can't normally be rolled. But flute would usually play something quite different. Triple tonguing is not common.

Not to beat the dead horse, but reels as hornpipes and weird triplets are examples of why you need to toss the dots and learn this stuff by ear. Especially if you're coming from a classical background.

agree 100%. i am prescribing that you go cold turkey on the dots. i went cold turkey for 3 years. it has made all the difference. i didnt even listen to the recording yet, but i can say that you will only cause yourself years of problems by learning straight off the sheet music. the reason you cant vary the tunes is cuz you are thinking about them as note names and fingerings, and not as sounds and tunes.

once you can learn by ear confidently and proficiently, then start to look at sheet music again. the dots are a wonderful thing, but only if you know how to use them. just think of it this way... you learned how to speak your native language and THEN learned how to write. the shame should go for music.

i recommend the amazing slow downer, from: http://www.ronimusic.com/ it will make it so much easier to learn by ear when you do not have any music at all.

if you brush off our comments and kind of "half do it," you will be wasting your time. i guarantee it 100%. i wasted my time with sheet music for 7 years AND i come from an irish music-playing family. to me it was difficult to play classical music even though i only played the silver flute, because i had been raised to play the flute the "irish way." even still, i still have problems with rhythm and timing and phrasing because i learned off of the sheet music for so long.

[daiv]

OK! Within a Mile of Dublin, take two. I tried turning it into mp3 but I'm not sure if it worked, so I'll put the m4a version up as well.

m4a: http://www.box.net/shared/gm00ahzqhu
mp3: http://www.box.net/shared/4o6zab2l8k

I know I tongued a couple times for sure, but I really tried to ornament instead as much as I could! Also I'm aware that a couple of spots weren't as solid as they could have been--clumsy fingers or experimental ornamentation or something...or maybe just me not being able to play something through once without flubbing it somewhere.

there are a lot of interesting things going on here (which i mean as a compliment). however, i feel like a lot of the positive things you are doing are being overclouded by hesitancy and shaky rhythm. might i suggest something though that you're not going to like--drop the ornamentation for now. it's clear you get the idea, but when it damages the rhythm and phrasing, drop it. if you're going to practice ornamentation, you must practice it insofar as it does not cloud the rhythm. if it does, then you have to practice the measure it is in repeatedly until the rhythm is spot on.

ornamentation is a tricky area. it is so fun, yet it can be difficult. the most difficult thing about it is that it kind of eats away at you. you feel guilty that you dont have it, or you want to put it in when you are not ready. this is a problem we all have. my uncle plays professionally (his clips load when you go to http://burkewhistles.com/ ), and he has the same sort of problems we have. if you try to put in rolls and cuts or variations you did not practice*, your timing will suffer. it is better to leave them out when you're playing for others and practice them at home, then to put them in and mess up. trust me. this is another one of my hard learned lessons.



*i am speaking very basically here. of course, as you get more experience, you can do these sort of things automatically. however, even still, you can only add so many ornamentations or variations before you will mess up. higher level players can just add more before messing up than beginners can. and of course, you can practicing being spontaneous, but that's another discussion.

[peeplj]

If you really want to learn to play this music right, I think your best reward for effort is going to be found in finding a teacher and working with them.

For a long time, I didn't understand this, but I see it now: trying to teach yourself to play Irish traditional music, authentically, has about as much hope of success as trying to teach yourself to authentically play early Baroque music.

I would also be a bit cautious about the advice you get here and on other places online. Some of it may be great, and some not so good...or even both at once.

If you need a teacher who can work with you online, I think Harry Bradley is still doing that, and possibly some others. It might be worth making inquiries.

Good luck and best wishes, and please keep us updated on your thoughts and your progress!

--James

[MeaghanEryn]

If you need a teacher who can work with you online, I think Harry Bradley is still doing that, and possibly some others. It might be worth making inquiries.

Where would be the place to go for said inquiries, and where might I look up Harry Bradley?? Online teachers are probably my best bet at the moment--not a lot of flutists out in Saskatoon! If you know of any who are teaching in Ottawa this summer, however, that could be handy--though my work is very "irregular" (this is the best, and nicest, way I can think of describing it!) and scheduling could be interesting.

[peeplj]

If you need a teacher who can work with you online, I think Harry Bradley is still doing that, and possibly some others. It might be worth making inquiries.

Where would be the place to go for said inquiries, and where might I look up Harry Bradley?? Online teachers are probably my best bet at the moment--not a lot of flutists out in Saskatoon! If you know of any who are teaching in Ottawa this summer, however, that could be handy--though my work is very "irregular" (this is the best, and nicest, way I can think of describing it!) and scheduling could be interesting.

Please check your private messages.

--James