Why is it that....

[Nanohedron]

There seems to be such strong opinions by some folks about the right way and a wrong way to learn and play ITM that I just thought extreme measures might be called for. (I'm teasing of course.)

Nay, speak not of right or wrong, but better.

[Yuri]

Azalin, classical musicians are not normally the interpreters of the music. They are just the, erm, technicians is perhaps the nearest term. It's the conductor that is. (OK, there are the chamber groups with no conductor, but most classical musicians play in orchestras.) That explains why they are often not so hot in a setting where they are expected to do more than play one note after the other.
On the other hand, imagine a grand orchestra consisting of a whole bunch of virtuosos. Each going his/her own way. That would be a disaster, frankly.
And yes, classical musos tend to stick to the classical repertoire.

[walrii]

Sometimes we paint others with too broad a brush based on our experience with one or two people. I live miles from anything resembling an Irish session and have taught myself what little I know with help from C&F and related sites plus books and CDs. I knew I had some real limitations, especially with rhythm and I knew I needed more discipline in my practice. I held off getting lessons because all our local teachers are band/classically oriented. I was sure they wouldn't understand ITM and would probably corruspt me in some way. I hit a wall about a year ago and got frustrated enough to try some lessons with a local store that teaches mostly kids and band students.

To my surprise, my instructor was more than willing to use Irish music for exercises and lessons. He asked me to bring him some CDs so he could listen to the tunes done by traditional musicians. He almost instantly diagnosed my problem as not being able to count and play at the same time. Small wonder, since my metronone and I never did hit it off.

Today, we started on a tune where the transcription showed the classical turn notation to suggest where rolls might go. My instructor explained turns to me and demonstrated a few then asked me to play it. I played a roll, of course, and he gave me a funny look. I explained the difference, as I understood it, between rolls and turns (MTGuru, you are a saint). He listened to a few rolls on a CD, practiced a bit and then we played the tune with rolls. He is bringing discipline to my practice (I now have homework and a goal for next week rather than just toodling) and my rhythm is improving by the week. I'm even making friends with my metronome!

I'm learning the basics from a teacher who enjoys music and teaches it well. That gets me on the next leg of the journey and that's a good thing. Now, I have to figure out how to break the news to him that tongueing isn't the only way to make the music crisper!

[Azalin]

Azalin, classical musicians are not normally the interpreters of the music. They are just the, erm, technicians is perhaps the nearest term. It's the conductor that is. (OK, there are the chamber groups with no conductor, but most classical musicians play in orchestras.) That explains why they are often not so hot in a setting where they are expected to do more than play one note after the other.
On the other hand, imagine a grand orchestra consisting of a whole bunch of virtuosos. Each going his/her own way. That would be a disaster, frankly.
And yes, classical musos tend to stick to the classical repertoire.

So you're telling me that a good conductor would be able to conduct an orchestra to play genuine trad music? Maybe with a magic stick

[Azalin]

There should be ITM licenses, ITM police, ITM courts, ITM prisons, & maybe in America, ITM firing squads. That'll keep things right.

Ah, good example here. If you were learning classical music, and people would make you practice things for hours because they tell you you got it wrong. Would you tell them that we'd need classes music licences, police, firing squads, etc?

If yes, well, fair enough, at least you're against any type of rule in any kind of music. If no, then, why?

[Yuri]

No, no, no. A good conductor will never attempt trad. music. It simply isn't what he's doing. For that matter what the musicians are doing. Would a heavy metal band attempt opera? Or an opera singer a heavy headbanging? They simply are good at what they do, but not good at what they don't do. I'm sure a good Irish whistler wouldn't really be happy to play a Telemann flute sonata. That's not what a whistle is for, neither is it what a whistler is for.

[Jerry Freeman]

No, no, no. A good conductor will never attempt trad. music. It simply isn't what he's doing. For that matter what the musicians are doing. Would a heavy metal band attempt opera? Or an opera singer a heavy headbanging? They simply are good at what they do, but not good at what they don't do. I'm sure a good Irish whistler wouldn't really be happy to play a Telemann flute sonata. That's not what a whistle is for, neither is it what a whistler is for.

Here you go:

http://www.box.net/shared/zi12xga6mq
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=62199

Best wishes,
Jerry

[MTGuru]

Jerry, he did say a good Irish whistler.

[hoopy mike]

What I do know is church music. We use sheet music. We don't play songs often enough to have them memorized. And even the songs we play at every Mass, well, we still use the sheet music. Once a sheet music user, always a sheet music user.

I can associate with that, but for me the sheet music is more like a comfort blanket than a true essential. Do you find yourself looking at the sheet music all of the time? Maybe try the occasional glance away from the dots and see what happens.

Oh, and for those who like their news reports on the hoopy side:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8047155.stm

[Mitch]

Hmmm at the risk of duplicating a ton of already stated stuff:

"Many years ago in Germany when I was just a lad" (quote from a Frank Zappa song) ...

I would play in numerous bands being a nascient professional musician. I often attended auditions for the next piano-player, Guitarist, Bassist, Drummer, Flautist, Saxophonist, yadda yadda, that wanted access to our copious gig-flow ... read: cornu-copious - A muso needs to pay his rent .. or, at least, pacify the remunitary penance exacted by his current girlfriend

What I noticed was this:

The dot-guy would always bring a music stand - if we had no dots to stick on it, he would walk. If he brang his own dots, we would all have to addapt to the arrangement penned by the anonomous compiler of those dots (professional arrangAAArrrr) .. we didn't like that - we could AAAAArrrrr better than any one .. true?

The dot guys were very useful - expendable plug-in-plug-out people that we could replace with a sequencer at any time so long as the drummer could pace with a "clik trak" in the drum-fill - WOO HOO - no need for extra programin!!

In the 2 ton truck, the plug-in guys would ride the tour to the next gig in the back with the gear - if they survived the trip without too many side FX from exhaust fume inhalation, they could stand up and play the gig with us - otherwise we could pull one from the crowd The savy ones kept low in the pan and ignored our driverly attempts to freak them out (freeeaquent uneccesary beaking and bizar swerve maneouvers .. at one time me and the guitar guy did a 200 mile trip on a nautical theme ... and measured the depth of sea-sick flowing over the back-pan when we got to the motel room!

For learning the songs we had the cassette/CD compilations and a paid-for rehearsal room. If they could cut it they were in.

On stage, if we threw an impromtu solo - it was disaster of one of us had to cover and keep the crowd hot.

SO what you gotta ask yourself is this:

1. If you play for yourself - coool play what and how you want.
2. If you play to be heard: Coool - play something someone wants to hear.
3. If you play dots ..does it serve 1 or 2? If not - there is a 2-ton pantek waiting to make you seasick for a joke .. and a 10$ bet

Dots are for learning and practice - on a stage there is nothing to hide behind - leave the music stand at home.

(edited to say: <snigger> when I was running 4 bands to fill the calendar, I had a bunch of primitave computer monitors strung around the stage with snippets of music, chord charts and hints about each song so's each line-up could all do the gig on minimum prep. They were all strung off of a micro computer I had programmed using Basic computer language - with all the song data pre-arranged for 100 songs and a nifty set-selection routine to get them in order .. included all the midi crap to set the keys settings FX and front of house and a gizmo to draw lichen for the drumer. with all that in mind .. sure- use them dots ... or whatever it takes - but don't get caught!)

(edited again to say .. yah yah yah - all you "classical" orchestra dudes - you got such a high workload to do a bungload of stuff you either can do in your sleep or just bland on thru the dots while the conductor performs for you ... at least you get to play some real music at the sesh )

(I am not synical - I bin there, got bored and bin somewhere else. Just watched a Gene Kelly movie - man that guy could dance! Go watch the Groucho bros - all those players and singers hadda do all that in one take! Human excelence is in your own soul - it is nothing new, but man .. if the world was without it???? You are the salt of the earth. Kapische????)

[pancelticpiper]

Good post Mitch!

What I want to make clear about my own experience in ITM is it's not an either-or thing, ear-playing and sightreading.

I'm just saying that at an ITM session, sheet music has almost no usefulness.

When I've taught Irish flute or whistle or whatever workshops at festivals or camps, I've found the ability of the attendees to sightread to be VERY useful.

Yes I breathe a sigh of relief when everybody at a workshop is a reader, because then I can hand out music and we can get to work right away.

I write out everything the way I want us to play it, and from the get-go the entire class is literally "on the same page".

We can get through a lot of material, cover a lot of tunes and techniques and points of style, in one hour.

What drags everything down to a snail's pace is when somebody can't read and has to labouriously figure out each note by ear.

Of course good ITM players aren't like that: they have terrific ears and can immediately play anything they hear.

Most good "legit" musicians (classical or jazz or whatever) can sightread well AND have great ears and can pick up a tune right away by ear.

[straycat82]

There seems to be such strong opinions by some folks about the right way and a wrong way to learn and play ITM that I just thought extreme measures might be called for. (I'm teasing of course.)

Though teasing, I think you've missed the point. Nobody here is (far as I can tell) arguing about the right and wrong way to do it; that's another discussion entirely. Most of this discussion has to do with the role that sheet music plays (or doesn't play) in Irish traditional music. The issue that I've been carrying on about (which seemed to be what initiated your "police" post) is that of people who show up and do whatever they want regardless of what the group's purpose is. As I said before I don't care what stage of playing you're in- we all have to start somewhere- but if you show up with no respect for the music and no respect for what the other musicians in the pub/house/etc. are doing then you will not be welcome. It's just rude and extremely inconsiderate. It has nothing to do with skill, brother, but a mind set and chosen attitude. I'll welcome anyone who is interested in playing the music. I won't be as likely to welcome every djebme player, bluegrass guitarist, classic flautist and egg shaker who shows up only because they want another jam session to goof off in. If there is not a genuine appreciation for the music (at the very least) and a desire to play the music in some manner that resembles the tradition, then a session is just not the place for you. You said something to the effect that there is a place for everyone in music. I can agree with that, however, there is not a place among this specific genre for just any musician who wanders in. 'Nuff said.

[Howie]

I began with reading music. Then I would memorize tunes verbatim. Later on I learned to play by ear. Playing by ear is quite different than memorization. Tunes that I memorized didn’t really stick with me that long. On the other hand, tunes that I picked up by ear were always with me. I feel there is value in reading and understanding music, and there is value in playing by ear. It seems to me that the two camps are divided with each looking down on the other, but it doesn’t have to be that way. With the kind of music we are playing, by ear seems to be the way to go and it certainly has its advantages. We are playing single notes and so it really isn’t rocket science. However, there are some very good reasons why in certain music domains the written sheet music is king. A composer may write his music to be played in a certain fashion by say four violins. Each violin has its part to play (four part harmony). The violinist cannot do as he pleases if the piece is to remain as the composer intended it to be. It can be the same way for instruments such as the piano where one is playing multiple notes, both melody and harmony. Sure a pianist can improvise and do as he likes, but within the classical field these tunes are written to be played in a certain way with set bass/harmony lines. Classical guitar tends to be that way too. Classical guitarist don’t seem to be encouraged to play by ear. I think it is a question as to how complex the piece is and what one is trying to achieve. That said for our purposes here in ITM the ear seems to be the way to go. I find some pieces are easier to pick up by ear than others though. I am glad I can read music. It is a very good reference.

Howie

[Blaydo]

straycat82: That sums it up perfectly IMO. I play every Wednesday now with a trad band in my local and I play the tunes the way they play them, which is often different to the way I've learned them. Theres so many ways to play a tune that it's just silly of someone to think they can bring along sheet music, sight read from it and think it'll blend in. What makes them think they have the sheet in the same key even? For next week I'm going to learn a simple tune called the Eagle's Whistle, the sheet music I found on the net and in books were in D and G but the pipers I play with play it in A so I'll just shift it up to A as I don't have an A whistle. I'm certainly not going to argue with them as to what key it's more commonly played in. Likewise if I introduce them to a new tune they'll play it the way I do. Respect the people you play with, otherwise as you rightly said you won't be welcomed.

Howie: Again this isn't any kind of anti sheet music thread, the OP's question was about why trad muso's have their entire repertoire in memory rather than in written notation.

[Azalin]

Respect the people you play with, otherwise as you rightly said you won't be welcomed.

I am very delighted to see through this thread that there is people, even people learn principaly from sheet music, who understand why it's important to go out of your way and do the extra effort to respect local tradition or 'way of doing things'. There's also many folks in this thread who share my strong opinions about this, and well, it makes me happy.