New Flute - Back to the beginning?

[celticmodes]

I've finally after a year gotten my Forbes to do what I ask it to do, or more probably I've gotten my embouchure to adjust quickly to each note. I'm very happy with the flute and my ability to play it.

Now my Reviol cast bore viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68518 flute arrives and I sound like a beginner again. I remember this sound. Airy low notes. I look at the blow hole and see that it is indeed larger and I've heard they take a fair amount of air. I'm trying to adjust but it's frustrating. The higher notes are so sweet and I seem to have full control over them but once I get on the G it all starts going south (pardon the pun).

With the larger bore and larger embouchure is it that I'm just not getting enough in there? These are supposed to be loud flutes but I'm not getting the volume anywhere near the Forbes. Maybe I've just not gotten my air volume to push it to it's desired resonance?

Any advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. Whereas the Forbes is a Pratten style, the Reviol seems to be a hybrid that in some places is referred to as a Pratteny Rudall or a Rudally Pratten. I understand that I won't get the same kind of honk on the bell note if it follows the Rudall shape but I've heard a lot of Rudall players produce very strong reedy low notes with overtones. I sound airy and 'woody' like I'm playing a bamboo flute (and not well

[Sillydill]

Switching flutes can be difficult. But I find the challenge FUN!

I initially had a bit of a time getting used to the Reviol embouchure. I found (for me) it worked best played straight up in the 12:00 position.

Plus rather that trying to pump more air into the flute, try to focus your air stream.

I'm sure you'll have the Reviol singing in no time!

Then when you go back to play your Forbes you'll be amazed at your improvement.

[Cork]

As Sillydill was saying, it's likely just a matter of getting your embouchure focused to the requirements of that particular flute.

Let me suggest, however, that you simply close your eyes, and pay absolutely no attention as to just what the embouchure size and shape could be.

Then, and by the authority of your own artistic license, EXPERIMENT!

Don't worry, BTW, as you already "know" what that flute can do, as others have already demonstrated, and eventually you'll "find" the right combination, no doubt. Of course, you just might have a "lemon" of a flute, but, really, that's highly unlikely.

And, it's definitely not as though you're back at the beginning. Give yourself some credit, please!

[celticmodes]

I did notice that it plays better for me with the blow hole not twisted back as much. And I will experiment until I find the proper combination. I don't think it's a lemon as it came from Doc's place and I'm sure he tooted on it seeing as he remarked on the sound.

I may be spoiled a bit by the Forbes low end. I can push that thing so hard into reedy without it jumping the octave and the break is so much earlier in the Reviol but again that may be my problem and not the flute.

Oh and to answer another question earlier on the cast bore, it does not sound like Delrin. It sounds like a wood flute.

[Henke]

You'll probably find it easier and easier to jump between different flutes the more experience you get. In the beginning it might be a challenge, especially if you've been playing more of a Pratten style flute and jump to a more Rudallesque one. I find the difference is not so much in volume as in a preference to a certain volume level, if I may put it that way. A Rudall style flute will usually be nearly as loud as a Pratten, but it requires more focus and more attention, while the Pratten is more naturally loud. I also find Rudall style flutes more naturally expressive, but that's just my opinion. And of course, I have absolutely no idea if this is true about the Forbes and Reviol flutes.

Just wanted to rant a bit before I go back to discussing
whisky

[Rob Sharer]

Henke, may we both live long enough to discuss whisky together over the rim of a glass or three!

Now, as for flutes, one of the main determiners of how to blow any particular flute successfully is what angle the blowing edge has been cut to. Look at your two flutes - are they cut differently? Some makers use a traditional-style cut which is less undercut; these flutes seem to want a more straight-down blow (Chris Wilkes advises trying to blow an imaginary grain of rice off your chin as a guide to how to get the best tone out of his flutes, which are definitely traditional). More modern embouchure cuts tend to be sharper, i.e. way undercut. The blow for these is somewhat different; you may get away with a more straight-across blow, but that doesn't mean you can't roll in. Personally, I find that a modern embouchure cut, which is usually coupled with the thicker headjoint wall, produces the most responsive instrument, with the most flexibility. The old-style cut is less likely to respond to the sort of fooling about that most trad players do to get that laser-beam sound from the Green Linnet records; you just have to learn to blow old-school.

But I digress. I think having more than one flute is great practice for being able to control your own embouchure. Try asking each maker how they would describe their own blow, if you can't watch them at it (one of my own favorite clues to how to get the most out of a particular instrument). Meanwhile, if it's too much air-sound that's bothering you, I always suggest "going inside", i.e. working from an exaggerated rolled-in sound, over-focused and twee, to a more usable, more rolled-out tone, rather than starting hissy and unfocused and trying to work back in. Make any sense? Hard to talk about, but I never let that stop me! Cheers,

Rob

[celticmodes]

You guys rock! I moved the embouchure to the 12 o'clock position and had immediate results. This is an angle issue with me. I will continue to experiment but please take my gratitude and thanks for your help so far in this. It would have taken quite a while I think to figure this out on my own.

[Denny]

take the headjoint off of the flute,
find where you and the flute work best at,
put the rest of the flute where yer hands want it,

then look at where the blow hole aligns with the tone holes.

[celticmodes]

Just an update. I'm doing much better but still have no where near the control in the lower notes. I'm sure it will come with time.

I was playing both flutes for a friend and he said that to his ears, the Reviol had a sound he associated more like a flute where the Forbes seemed very different. He is a musician and said the Forbes had more overtones whereas the Reviol was 'sweet'. I wasn't sure if this was normal for the flutes or was accentuated by my lack of development on one of them.

I can say that the higher notes on the Forbes are powerful and edgy and when I try the same with the Reviol, there are less overtones but what comes out is 'achingly sweet'. He was also surprised how good it sounded.

I guess at this point I'll just do the same old exercises I did with the Forbes (i.e. having 'D' days with long tones) to learn what the new one wants out of me.

[Cork]

About the differences between the Forbes and the Reviol...

I have a Forbes, but I have no experience with the Reviol. However, I went to C&F member Doc Jones' site, and saw a few images of the Reviol. And, from here it looks as though the Reviol has some fairly large holes on it, including the embouchure and tone holes, as does the Forbes, and so I'm inclined to think that your Reviol has some potential that you simply haven't tapped into just yet.

Swapping from one flute to another gets much easier with time and experience, but for now try doing things with your embouchure, including various physical contortions, etc., which might not seem like they'd work, yet might. Even a slight change to your embouchure could make a big difference. Generally, the smaller the embouchure hole of a flute, the smaller a player's embouchure needs to be, and vice versa, and, a "tight" embouchure can create a "bright" or "sweet" tone, while a "relaxed" embouchure can create a "dark" or "reedy" tone, and it's the reedy tone which most ITM players seem to prefer.

And yes, like others here, I'm an advocate of keeping a flute's embouchure hole pointed straight up and "in line" with the tone holes, at all times! I was once taught to do it that way, but I just had to find out why. So, I tried everything else, but no matter what I did it turned out that straight up indeed is the way to go. Try experimenting, and see for yourself.

[celticmodes]

...Reviol has some fairly large holes on it, including the embouchure and tone holes, as does the Forbes, and so I'm inclined to think that your Reviol has some potential that you simply haven't tapped into just yet.

I was noticing while cleaning the flutes that the bore of the Reviol is much larger that my Forbes as is the embouchure and at least some of the tone holes. The fact that I play the Forbes much louder suggests that your statement is true.

I can't wait!

[Cork]

...Reviol has some fairly large holes on it, including the embouchure and tone holes, as does the Forbes, and so I'm inclined to think that your Reviol has some potential that you simply haven't tapped into just yet.

I was noticing while cleaning the flutes that the bore of the Reviol is much larger that my Forbes as is the embouchure and at least some of the tone holes. The fact that I play the Forbes much louder suggests that your statement is true.

I can't wait!

Always remember, that you have an artistic license, to experiment, in matters of instruments, of music, and of whatever.

So, try forgetting all about your previous experience, and pick up the Reviol as if for the first time, beginning as a whole new experience.

And then, do whatever it takes to get the most out of it.

;-)