is busking begging?

[CHasR]

I condemn alcoholic cows

[cowtime]

those still following along may note that Jim has also proved that

cows can not be beggars

Well, cows CAN be beggars, but not when they're playing the kazoo.
I once tipped a cow, in fact, but I was drunk at the time.
So was the cow. Never could have managed it
otherwise.

Y'all have just got to quit bad-mouthin' cows.
It ain't right.

Cows never beg. They bawl.. sometimes a lot.. but never beg.

I condemn alcoholic cows

Yes,there is the occasional bovine that just can't control their intake of corn silage.

[Denny]

all righty!!! cowtroversy!!!

[jim stone]

I mispoke. The cow wasn't drunk. She was tripping on mescaline.
So was I. Maybe there was no cow.

[s1m0n]

I believe in the US busking is a protected right for US citizens only, I know that the US State Department use to classify busking as a form of begging at one time and would not grant visas to individuals who noted busking as an occupation on their visa applications.

I suspect the opposite: busking is working, and that's a right denied foreign visitors without a green card. I don't know of any nation which will admit anyone stupid enough to tell a border guard that they don't have enough money for their stay and plan to busk. You won't get into Canada with that story, for sure.

[Innocent Bystander]

This is not proof.
a) the argument is circular
b) It doesn’t address the issue and
c) it doesn’t hold water anyway.

You say:

1.Tipping is a small gift of money for a service. Definition.

That’s part of a part of a definition. I prefer to use Chambers 20th Century, but I only have the OED to hand: (other definitions omitted) 5. Make usually small present of money to (especially for service given or expected; must tip the porter, the waiter). …7. Small money present (cf. sense 5).
The matter of there being a service is not essential to the definition. Besides, it is you who regard this money as a tip, because you consider that you are providing (or will provide) a service. Therefore the argument is circular, and depends upon itself.

It doesn’t address the issue: in my point of view, waiters and porters expecting a tip are also beggars. The dog who puts its paw on your leg at the table, and is rewarded with a scrap, is doing exactly the same thing. It provides a service: it catches rats, or fetches game, or herds sheep, or is simply a good companion. Its remuneration is its board and lodging. Scraps at table are the result of begging.

There is a difference between the European view of this and the American view. The American view is that this is the way of the world and sanctioned by usage. The European, or at least, the UK view, is that you are already paying for the service, and if the waiter or porter depends on tips then they are being underpaid and therefore abused. To some extent this reflects the amount of spending money available in each country.

I’ll grant you that beggars are not offering a service. You argue that you are. There is an element of self-deception here. You may be (sort of) offering a service, but you must recognise that no matter how delightful your music, it will be unwelcome to some. This is human nature. To argue otherwise is to shut your eyes to the real world. In addition, your “service” has not been requested. You are thrusting it upon people. A proportion may welcome it, but a proportion will not.

You repeat “nobody tips beggars”. I repeat that everything given to beggars is a tip. See the OED definition of the word.

You say:

Busking is the practice of performing in public places for tips and gratuities. People engaging in this practice are called buskers or street performers. ‘Wiki. Busking. Definition’ In fact, people who give money to street performers believe they are giving a gratuity to show their appreciation for the service of the entertainment.

I don’t argue with this. But that is what I call begging. It’s the same for fire-eaters, jugglers and street acrobats. It may be skilled, it may be enjoyable. It is still begging.

5. As buskers, not beggars, earn tips, it follows that busking isn’t begging.

I dispute this. A man or woman asking for money in the street is begging, whether they are notionally supplying a service or not. If you have a hat upturned on the ground in front of you, or an open instrument-case inviting coins (maybe primed with a float) then you are asking for money and therefore begging. Yes, they may be working, and you may consider that they earn what they beg. But it is still begging.

As far as the law is concerned, busking, not panhandling, is classified as artistic expression.
Begging and panhandling are simply banned in some cities, e.g. Chicago. That’s illegal with busking. It may be possible to make a first amendment argument on behalf of panhandling, but the case is much weaker and as far as I can tell, nobody has made it. Universal
bans on begging remain in place in several cities.
So, in the eyes of the law, busking isn’t begging.

I can see how the exception is made. I also think that this is peculiar to the U.S.. There is, I agree, a difference of degree, and yes, you can argue “free speech”. This, to my mind, simply elevates it to a different degree of begging, and one that is excused by U.S. law.
Somebody said that it’s clear I loathe begging. That’s not so – they are projecting their own attitudes on what they read. I’ve been in a position where I have to beg. I’m under no illusions that my busking would “earn” me any kind of money. I don’t begrudge fine musicians making money in this way.

But I repeat: if you have an upturned hat or open insturment case in front of you, it is begging.

[Flutered]

OK, let me prove it.
Some definitions:
2. Beggars are not performing a service, nor are they trying to, nor are they perceived as performing a service. (I set aside cases where the beggar offers to do you some service for a reward.)
3. Therefore the money given beggars isn’t a tip. Nobody tips beggars.

I'm somewhat surprised at your blind spot Jim, given your standing up for the rights of workers in 'Pakistan' and the like, turning out budget flutes and other musical instruments.

Go back to my standard image of the archetypal mother & child begging on the sidewalk. The child may or may not be hers, but she is asking for money and trading skilfully in elicting human sympathy for her perceived condition and needs of the child etc. I would argue that that is every bit as much a skill as you tooting a few old tunes out. People listen to you and maybe say 'Oh that's nice' and give you some change - They look at the mother & child and they also give spare cash - in return they feel good and get a little lift in return for having helped a fellow human being. Taking both at face value, they are both the same - you are both trading on some little skill and hope to get people to part with a few coins in order that they may feel good.

[jim stone]

Compact Oxford English Dictionary

Tip • noun 1 a small sum of money given as a reward for services rendered

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/tip_3?view=uk

............................................................................................

tip: a small sum of money, often a percentage of the total billed, given to a waiter, porter, etc. for services; gratuity

http://www.yourdictionary.com/tip

................................................................................................

Tip # A small sum of money given to someone for performing a service; a gratuity.

http://www.answers.com/topic/tip

................................................................................

tip: a relatively small amount of money given for services rendered (as by a waiter) .

http://lookwayup.com/lwu.exe/lwu/d?s=f&w=tip

.................................................................

Tip: [v] give a tip or gratuity to in return for a service, beyond the agreed-on compensation; "Remember to tip the waiter"

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/tip

And so on.....

No, it isn’t controversial that a tip is a small amount of money given as a gift for a service.
It is not only my perception that I am being given a gift for services, it is that of the people
tipping me. Indeed, they often say 'Thank you for the music.' Beggars aren't tipped, however.
So busking isn't begging.

[benhall.1]

Ooh dear! I can't be bothered to read all of this. Just to say that, basically, I agree with Innocent Bystander, except to add (and Innocent may have said this himself (herself?)) that, whilst it seems self-evident to me that busking is a form of begging, I see nothing wrong with it per se. Of course, it may be really annoying, just like persistent begging of any kind, in which case I may not like it.

I don't tend to give to beggars (even though I've busked myself). Sometimes, though, I see a really pathetic looking dog and I think "Bloody hell, they've worked on that routine!" and I'll give something because it's made me smile. Sometimes I see a bunch of decent-ish musicians and I think "Bloody hell, they've worked on that routine!" and I'll give something because it's made me smile.

[SteveShaw]

If you play the harmonica you can just go and join in. I've staggered more than one bunch of buskers in my time doing just that. Just a low D harp and G harp in the pocket is all I need...

[Innocent Bystander]

Whatever your definition of the term "tip", the argument is a circular one. It depends upon itself, and is worthless.

What is important is the lack of a contract between you and those who might or might not contribute money. You are not asking a fee for your services: no fee is set. "Suggested Donation" does not constitute a contract.

I don't have a problem with people doing it, in principle.

As BenHall says, it is self-evident that busking is begging. I'm not arguing the case any more.

[Cubitt]

Just a point of clarification: Buskers do NOT provide a service. They provide music that may or may not be appreciated or even good. By no definition that I can think of would unrequested music be considered a service.

Look, I love buskers, but busking is a form of begging, and I doubt many would do it if they could get a legitimate gig as a performer.

[dwest]

Look, I love buskers, but busking is a form of begging, and I doubt many would do it if they could get a legitimate gig as a performer.

Now wait a second we used to juggle to snare poor unsuspecting new novices. We could have gotten a legit gig any number of places but we were already juggling chosen careers. Street work was just a way to share our craft, we even use to give away bean bags to promising "students," we didn't ask for the money people threw at us.

[Nanohedron]

Now here's a question that probably answers itself: when you're doing public minstrelsy strictly for your own enjoyment - and, one hopes, at least to the irritation of no one else - and there is no upturned hat, no open instrument case, no discernible invitation for gratuities, and in fact you even turn down money offers, is it still busking? Doing a search, Wikipedia suggests that it is. Fair enuf. So is busking begging? I think the answer is: not necessarily, and not just because of the not-looking-for-money aspect it can have.

An interesting note (also from the Wiki article on busking):

In her documentary movie and book, Underground Harmonies: Music and Politics in the Subways of New York (Anthropology of Contemporary Issues), Susie J. Tanenbaum examines how the old adage "Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast" plays out in regards to busking. Her sociological studies showed that in areas where buskers regularly perform, crime rates tended to go down.

For that alone, we could be thankful for buskers. So get out there with your weapon of choice, if your municipality permits, and strike a blow for everyone's improved quality of life.

[I.D.10-t]

This thread seems to assume that beggars and panhandlers do not provide a service or work at their craft. Many have thought out their signs, clothing, their narrative that they want to give, etc. In return, the person that gives alleviates their guilt and can pat themselves on the back for helping one that they feel is less fortunate. Some are just con-men, but others use humor and other gimmicks to earn money.