Keys and the pipers grip

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Blackwood
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by Blackwood »

No, it means this, that for many players,
the C natural key is the key they most commonly use.
Not sure what the insistence is on this statement, but it is certainly not true for the vast majority of Irish trad players that use keys.
Will you be able to find a couple of people that mostly use the C natural key? Maybe. But then these people would not play an extensive repetroire of tunes in keys which invariably require the keys of F nat, Eb, G# and even Bb.

Granted in some cases you can use cross fingerings, but the reality is in many cases you are not able to play these tunes effectively (ie at speed, or volume) without the keys. That's why the keys were invented in the 1st place!!

The C natural can be helpful in the 2nd otcatve, but it is a rare occasion that this key is required for the purpose of playing a C nat. The same cannot be said for the other keys.
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by jim stone »

Blackwood wrote:
No, it means this, that for many players,
the C natural key is the key they most commonly use.
Not sure what the insistence is on this statement, but it is certainly not true for the vast majority of Irish trad players that use keys.
Will you be able to find a couple of people that mostly use the C natural key? Maybe. But then these people would not play an extensive repetroire of tunes in keys which invariably require the keys of F nat, Eb, G# and even Bb.

Granted in some cases you can use cross fingerings, but the reality is in many cases you are not able to play these tunes effectively (ie at speed, or volume) without the keys. That's why the keys were invented in the 1st place!!

The C natural can be helpful in the 2nd otcatve, but it is a rare occasion that this key is required for the purpose of playing a C nat. The same cannot be said for the other keys.
I think I understand you. I agree, of course, that you don't need the key to play C natural and
more often do need to use the other keys you mention to play the notes you mention.

The reason I say that for many Irish flute players, the C natural key is the one they
most commonly use is this: following Gordon's report above, a fair number of people
report that they do.
I expect that a number of these people are not
playing a high percentage of tunes that involve the other keys.
Most ITM doesn't involve them. (That's why people like Pat Olwell sell
lots of keyless flutes.)
But ITM routinely involves lots of C naturals. And there's
lots of people who use the C natural key to play a number of the C naturals
they play, that's what they say: so the key is going to get used more than other keys.
That's the reasoning.

I just want to emphasize that the claim that 'for many players,
the C natural key is the key they most commonly use' is consistent
with this NOT being the case for many players.

Let me try say this clearly:
The fact is that, over the years, many people have written to this board
that they use the C natural key a fair amount in playing C natural,
though often they cross-finger too--that's a common report. And there are lots
more C naturals than F nats, Ebs, G#s and even Bbs, which don't
happen in most tunes most of the people on this board play.
So many people are using the C natural key more often
than they use other keys.

A few years ago Dave Copley showed me the flute
he had made for himself to play. It had just one key: C natural.
A lot of people find it a very useful key. Terry M considers it
the most useful (see my preceding post).
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by johnkerr »

jim stone wrote:The reason I say that for many Irish flute players, the C natural key is the one they
most commonly use is this: following Gordon's report above, a fair number of people
report that they do.
I expect that a number of these people are not
playing a high percentage of tunes that involve the other keys.
Most ITM doesn't involve them. (That's why people like Pat Olwell sell
lots of keyless flutes.)
But ITM routinely involves lots of C naturals. And there's
lots of people who use the C natural key to play a number of the C naturals
they play, that's what they say: so the key is going to get used more than other keys.
That's the reasoning.
Wow. I've been playing Irish flute for close to twenty years now, and in that time I've met a lot of people playing keyless flutes while waiting for a keyed flute. I was one of those keyless guys myself for many years. And in all that time, I've never met a keyless flute player who said "I've gotta get a keyed flute so I can have that C natural key." If this legion of lovers of the C nat key is really out there, how in the world is it that I've never run into even one of them?
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by LorenzoFlute »

If this legion of lovers of the C nat key is really out there, how in the world is it that I've never run into even one of them?
No idea why...
I've met very few flute players that play keyed flutes here in italy, and at least two of them use the C nat key extensively. I can imagine that in ireland and USA there will be much more people that uses it... I don't think i'll ever be one of them.
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by Gordon »

jim stone wrote:
The reason I say that for many Irish flute players, the C natural key is the one they
most commonly use is this: following Gordon's report above, a fair number of people
report that they do. .
Why do I keep being dragged into this? I don't use keys much at all, really, and don't know many ITM players that use the C nat key at all. I never said, or meant to imply, that I did, only that some must, as makers keep including them. Of course, they're in the keyed flute business. Most ITM players rarely use keys, in my experience, and those that do, do sparingly. But don't quote me on that. Seriously.
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by MTGuru »

Gordon wrote:Why do I keep being dragged into this?
Image
Leave Gordon alone!

:lol:
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by Julia Delaney »

I can imagine that in ireland and USA there will be much more people that uses it

You can imagine it but you'd be wrong.... Not ITM players, anyways. Except at the top of the second octave. For that it's worth it, to me. But it's the first key I'd leave off if I had to leave one off.

Seems like most people on this thread, anyways, often don't use the C key most. Does that sound like I are a philosophy professor?

jim stone said:
Most ITM doesn't involve [the other keys]. (That's why people like Pat Olwell sell lots of keyless flutes.)
No... Olwell sells a lot of keyless flutes because they're less than half the price of keyed flutes and you don't have to wait five years for one. But after you've been playing a while you discover the world of G minor and Paddy Fahey and Sligo tunes and Ed Reavy and .... oh, gee... you probably know all this.
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by talasiga »

Has anyone related the discussion of keys on a flute to pipers' grip which is subject of topic?
Where did I miss that post?
help me here.
thanks.
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by groxburgh »

The key I use the most is not the same thing as the key I could least do without. After not using it for many years I now use the C key far more than any other but (after the long F) it's the first one I'd choose to not have if I had to do without some of them.

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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by Nanohedron »

talasiga wrote:Has anyone related the discussion of keys on a flute to pipers' grip which is subject of topic?
Where did I miss that post?
help me here.
thanks.
In the past I've mentioned my relationship to an eight-keyed setup as a "piper's gripologist", and at least twice that I recall (other threads, though). But, I'll say it again: I can and do without appreciable difficulty use 'em all, except for the Bb key, having only the standard single touch on that one. If I had a double touch it might be a different story (who knows?) but failing that revelation, instead I crossfinger when I want a Bb note, thus:

Lower octave
XOX XXX

Second octave
XOX OXO

Third octave I don't even concern myself with yet. Some day, maybe. The 1st 8ve crossfingered Bb is a tad weak on my flute, but serviceable enough for my liking, AND in tune. 2nd 8ve crossfingered Bb is bright, strong, and clear. Also in tune.
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by AbraXas »

I was thinking quite a lot, before I let the thought of a C-key pass away, for now. A 4-keyed flute will probably be more effecient for me at the present time, the way I see it. And if I change my mind in the future, it is no big deal to add it later on.

Just thought I should bring some kind of closure to the thread.

Anyways, thank you for all the replies.
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by Nanohedron »

AbraXas wrote:I was thinking quite a lot, before I let the thought of a C-key pass away, for now. A 4-keyed flute will probably be more effecient for me at the present time, the way I see it. And if I change my mind in the future, it is no big deal to add it later on.
Adding keys after the fact may prove more problematic than you think: a flute is tuned for what it is. Add a hole later on, and you irrevocably change the interior profile (unless, of course, you change your mind and fill it with wax or putty), and with that, intonation can be adversely affected. Just something worth keeping in mind.

FWIW, others have suggested that a fully-keyed instrument, six at least, has more reliable overall resale value, if that's something you also have in consideration. If not, four should do you.
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by AbraXas »

Nanohedron wrote:
AbraXas wrote:I was thinking quite a lot, before I let the thought of a C-key pass away, for now. A 4-keyed flute will probably be more effecient for me at the present time, the way I see it. And if I change my mind in the future, it is no big deal to add it later on.
Adding keys after the fact may prove more problematic than you think: a flute is tuned for what it is. Add a hole later on, and you irrevocably change the interior profile (unless, of course, you change your mind and fill it with wax or putty), and with that, intonation can be adversely affected. Just something worth keeping in mind.

FWIW, others have suggested that a fully-keyed instrument, six at least, has more reliable overall resale value, if that's something you also have in consideration. If not, four should do you.
I have thought about the resell value, but I favor a custom flute that works for me rather than the resell value, at any time.
It will probably be almost as hard to sell the flute with 6 keys, as the keys will have custom placings to fit my grip.
Adding a new key might be a problem as you say, but it is good that it is the c-key and not any other key,
since the C can be produced without the key itself, and because of that, the c-key is a non necessary feature.
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Re: Keys and the pipers grip

Post by Loren »

Since we're on the topic of keys and who is, or isn't using what, I'm curious: How many people here play 8 key flutes, and how much, if ever, do you use those C and C#keys?

Loren
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