And now, the work begins...

[Denny]

'at's not complicated!
'at's jess terminology

[Cathy Wilde]

I really had some fun this winter when I played for a weekend of madrigal performances. Soprano & tenor recorder, D flute, Eb flute, C whistle, low D whistle; meanwhile, our community orchestra was rehearsing the chamber version of Copland's Appalachian Spring twice a week, our Irish band had a gig, and I'd set myself some bizarre deadline for achieving something or other on the uilleann pipes, too (can't remember what that was about).

Things got a little wacky there for a bit. But overall, I was OK as long as I didn't think too hard about what I was doing. The minute my brain would wander over into Comparison Land -- i.e., "Hmmm, what's the piping fingering for this note?" while playing the recorder -- it was Wipeout City.

[Denny]

I was OK as long as I didn't think too hard about what I was doing.

[johnkerr]

I got started with Boehm Concert flutes, also known as C flutes, and then quite a few years later I took up the Boehm Alto flute, also known as a G flute and tuned a fourth lower than the C flute. Now, at a glance, the Alto flute simply looks like an oversized version of the Concert flute, but the reality is that the fingering of D on the Alto is where G is on the Concert flute, for instance, which basically means that a player must re-train their fingering habits, or else they wind up playing the wrong tone.

Well, I've just done about the same thing to myself, once again. This time, however, I got my first six-key C flute, which simply looks like an oversized six-key D flute, but, again, the reality is that the fingering is altogether different than the D flute, meaning that I must now re-train my fingering habits.

In other words, learning four different keying systems is almost like being a multi-instrumentalist.

Frankly, I think I've about hit the limit. Four is enough!

What kind of music do you play, traditional aurally-based music (like ITM) or classical-type music where written notation is commonly used? Depending on which it is, your approach should be different when dealing with flutes in different keys. If you're playing aurally-based music, learn the tunes by ear rather than from sheet music. Fit each tune to whatever flute you think it sounds best and falls under your fingers best on, and don't worry about fitting particular note names to fingerings. Although many traditional players do use the dots to some extent in learning tunes, the ear trumps what's on the page every single time. Some traditional players (Mike Rafferty for one) do not even know the names of the notes they are playing, yet they have vast repertoires of tunes in many different keys.

OTOH if the music you play is more orchestral or classical in nature (i.e. if it's normal to read from sheet music even in performance) then treat your flutes in different keys the same way an orchestral flute player would. Adopt a standard fingering system, i.e. note name = fingering, and then rewrite your charts so that you read the tunes in one key and they sound in another key. I never played orchestral flutes, so I don't know what their standard fingering system is, but for clarinet which I did play there are several different ones which are named by the note actually sounded when the written note C is fingered. Bb clarinets and Eb clarinets are typically played in bands, and A clarinets are typically played in orchestras. But as a player of any clarinet, I look at the note on the page and finger it the same way no matter what clarinet I'm playing. These are called transposing instruments, BTW, while any instrument that sounds the same note that's fingered is called a concert pitch instrument. I'm pretty sure the standard Boehm orchestral flute is a concert pitch instrument, while alto flutes and such are transposing istruments. If you don't already have the right charts for whatever tune you want to play on some flute in a non-concert pitch, then sit down once and write them out. That will be much easier on your brain than having to transpose on the fly every time you play!

[Doug_Tipple]

I got started with Boehm Concert flutes, also known as C flutes ...

Just to complicate matters, the Boehm "C" flute has the same fingering/pitch as a simple-system "D" flute. Both sound a "D" note for the xxx xxx fingering, which is the bottom note for the simple-system, but not for the Boehm, which has two (sometimes three) keys below that that are controlled with the pinky. But when a simple-system flute has those extra keys, it is still said to be in "D".

We had a thread here fairly recently where James, if I am not mistaken, explained why there is this seeming contradiction in the key designation between the concert Boehm flute and the simple system low D folk flute. Without going into the details that only a person schooled in music theory would understand, the reason for this seeming discrepancy is that the two flutes are described by different naming conventions. With the system used in concert instruments, a Boehm flute is considered a C flute although the fingering is very close to the same fingering on a low D simple system folk flute. So we have two flutes pitched the same that are described differently because of the naming convention. It causes some confusion, to me, at least.

[RudallRose]

Boehm C flutes (or pretty much all modern Flutes) are based on the C-major scale.
Bell note at the bottom is C.

D flutes of our period (simple system) are based on the D-major scale and the original bell note was in fact D.....then the two key were added to get down to C.

We've accommodated the fingerings to the language. Finger D is covering all the holes with fingers. That is in fact D.
On the Eb flute it is Eb, though "fingered as D" in our parlance. Everything is a 1/2 step higher.
On the C (simple system) flute, fingered as D is in fact a full step lower, or a C, as are all the other notes in the scale. The D scale fingering is actually a C-major scale.

Not sure why you'd want to ensure the same tone (so a D-major tune, you'd be using -- in our parlance -- E major fingerings on the C flute to produce the same tones as if you'd be using a D flute). Emaj = 4 sharps (F, C, G, D)

Basically it's nutty. There's no advantage to that at all.

If you want the lower mode....but play in pitch with others, then you'd likely find the simpler combinations. So a D tune in D......you'd play on the Low A flute and use G fingerings. You get the mode and you get the single sharp (F) to finger. Piece of cake.

Why complicate your life the other way? (mind you......I've done the other more complex way my entire life.....and there's really no distinct advantage. If you know your scales, you're good to go)

[Cork]

I got started with Boehm Concert flutes, also known as C flutes ...

Just to complicate matters, the Boehm "C" flute has the same fingering/pitch as a simple-system "D" flute. Both sound a "D" note for the xxx xxx fingering, which is the bottom note for the simple-system, but not for the Boehm, which has two (sometimes three) keys below that that are controlled with the pinky. But when a simple-system flute has those extra keys, it is still said to be in "D".

Yes, although the Boehm Concert flute is commonly known as a flute in C, it seems that it's really a D flute, but in disguise.

Although I've never tried one, apparently there is such a thing as a D foot joint for the Boehm flute, having only an Eb key.

And, a D flute with only an Eb key goes all the way back to the original one-key Baroque flute!

Small world, eh?

:-)

[RudallRose]

Just to complicate matters, the Boehm "C" flute has the same fingering/pitch as a simple-system "D" flute.

It most definitely does NOT.

When you finger the F# on the D simple system flute -- X X X X O O

That is an F-natural on the Boehm flute.

And the Briccialdi Bb key helps with the C-nat......

`

[Cork]

Throw a set of uilleann pipes plus D, Bb, F, and Eb flutes into the mix and see what happens.

...

...Shhh! I wasn't going to mention my experiences with diatonic flutes in other keys. ...

I woke up this morning thinking about this thread, and let me add some comments, beginning with keyless flutes.

Keyless flutes are to flutes as hot rods are to cars, built to go fast. There's no mechanism to get in the way, and I find that I can do things with a keyless flute that make a Boehm flute, including all of its mechanism, seem clumsy.

Of course, there's a trade-off, in that keyless flutes are largely diatonic. I can comfortably get two keys out of a keyless flute, but because I'm no hero when it comes to half-holing, getting a third key out of one is for me always tenuous. Now, I do have keyless flutes in half a dozen different keys, but unlike you and numerous others here, I rarely ever play with, and therefore rarely ever need to tune to, anybody else, so for me it's largely a matter of choosing a flute based more on its tonal qualities. Moreover, about 99% of the time I reach for a keyless D flute, and if I encounter an unavoidable accidental, I then simply reach for a flute with keys.

When it comes to flutes with keys, it seems there are at least a few views. 1) Flutes have keys in order to help keep them from rolling off the table. 2) Flutes have keys for those occasions when an accidental is unavoidable, but otherwise such flutes are played as a keyless flute. And, 3) Dammit, if it's fully chromatic, then by golly I'm going to get my money's worth out of it, and play all around the circle of fifths, topped off with some aggressive arpeggios!

The trouble, however, is that apparently some instruments transpose easily, while others simply do not. It seems that pianos, fret-less strings, and perhaps most brass instruments can shift keys with relative ease, yet perhaps most woodwinds suffer in that regard, as, for instance, some passages play easily on the flute, while others simply do not. This is where having two or more differently pitched flutes, including chromatic flutes, could come in handy, for not only do you get a choice of different tonal qualities, but it often happens that a passage which plays with difficulty on one flute could play with ease on the other.

As a matter of daily ritual, I begin by striking a tuning fork, not so much that I need it as a tonal reference, but listening to a steady tone helps to clear my musical head, to then begin a fresh session. I usually then match that tone to whatever flute I'm playing, to get the flute warmed up and into tune. Moreover, it's a ritual I've long become accustomed to, and one which then carried over to when I adopted the Alto flute. Moreover, because the Alto flute is a fourth lower than the Concert flute, I then needed to learn a whole new fingering, in order to keep the same sense of order, relative to the reference tone. And, basically, for me that same logic applies to keyed simple system flutes, too. BTW, I hope that makes sense.

Edit: some minor editing occurred, here. Edit #2: a spelling error; spellcheck didn't know the difference between "forth" and "fourth". Edit #3: comment added

[Cork]

...What kind of music do you play, traditional aurally-based music (like ITM) or classical-type music where written notation is commonly used? Depending on which it is, your approach should be different when dealing with flutes in different keys. If you're playing aurally-based music, learn the tunes by ear rather than from sheet music. Fit each tune to whatever flute you think it sounds best and falls under your fingers best on, and don't worry about fitting particular note names to fingerings. Although many traditional players do use the dots to some extent in learning tunes, the ear trumps what's on the page every single time. Some traditional players (Mike Rafferty for one) do not even know the names of the notes they are playing, yet they have vast repertoires of tunes in many different keys...

Basically, I had become accustomed to dividing an octave into twelve intervals long before I discovered ITM.

Yet, I certainly can agree with you, in that the ear does "trump" when it comes to music.

BTW, Mike Rafferty is one of my favorite players!

[Cathy Wilde]

I'm often amazed at how klunky my Boehm flute seems when I pick it up now ... so remote, somehow, all those keys in the way. But then I play a couple of movements of one of the Brandenburgs (I was pretending to be a viola) like we did for a concert last weekend, and I appreciate it anew. Just for grins I tried a bit of one on my Murray, but was eliminated at the third Liverpool. Thought about working on it just for veritas' sake, but naaah. If I want to torture myself musically, I've got the pipes.

[RudallRose]

Keyless flutes are to flutes as hot rods are to cars, built to go fast.

Nice idea....but they became popular since the basic keys of traditional music are handily gotten on the keyless flute. Too, they are much less expensive than the models with silver keys, ergo affordable. They were surely not designed to go fast. If that were true we'd be seeing our fastest players using them quite exclusively, when in fact the converse is true.

I can comfortably get two keys out of a keyless flute, but because I'm no hero when it comes to half-holing, getting a third key out of one is for me always tenuous

I think you mean the major modes, no? Because by playing the basic D and G major, you also comfortably get Bm and Em as the relatives. That's 4. Add A major and F#m (sounds harder than it is) and the various mixo and dorian etc around A and you've suddenly got yourself quite a few more keys than even you bargained for.

I should note that G# is the easiest of the half-hole experiences, so no real heroism needed!

[Cork]

Keyless flutes are to flutes as hot rods are to cars, built to go fast.

Nice idea....but they became popular since the basic keys of traditional music are handily gotten on the keyless flute. Too, they are much less expensive than the models with silver keys, ergo affordable. They were surely not designed to go fast. If that were true we'd be seeing our fastest players using them quite exclusively, when in fact the converse is true...

Well, I was speaking of my experience as coming from keyed flutes, that keyless flutes really are fast, with no mechanism to get in the way.

I can comfortably get two keys out of a keyless flute, but because I'm no hero when it comes to half-holing, getting a third key out of one is for me always tenuous

I think you mean the major modes, no? Because by playing the basic D and G major, you also comfortably get Bm and Em as the relatives. That's 4. Add A major and F#m (sounds harder than it is) and the various mixo and dorian etc around A and you've suddenly got yourself quite a few more keys than even you bargained for.

I should note that G# is the easiest of the half-hole experiences, so no real heroism needed!

Yes, technically I should have included the relative minors, too.

However, considering that there are 24 major and minor scales, perhaps the keyless flute could have some practical limits.

And, yes, I can half-hole G#, albeit tenuously, but my point had more to do with the chromatic limits of the keyless flute.

[johnkerr]

...What kind of music do you play, traditional aurally-based music (like ITM) or classical-type music where written notation is commonly used? Depending on which it is, your approach should be different when dealing with flutes in different keys. If you're playing aurally-based music, learn the tunes by ear rather than from sheet music. Fit each tune to whatever flute you think it sounds best and falls under your fingers best on, and don't worry about fitting particular note names to fingerings. Although many traditional players do use the dots to some extent in learning tunes, the ear trumps what's on the page every single time. Some traditional players (Mike Rafferty for one) do not even know the names of the notes they are playing, yet they have vast repertoires of tunes in many different keys...

Basically, I had become accustomed to dividing an octave into twelve intervals long before I discovered ITM.

Yet, I certainly can agree with you, in that the ear does "trump" when it comes to music.

BTW, Mike Rafferty is one of my favorite players!

I think you totally missed the point of what I was trying to say. You claim that your head is exploding from having to learn different fingering systems for flutes in different keys. I'm saying that you don't need to care what pitch goes with what fingering. Just choose one and go with it, transposing when you play the other flutes. Unless you happen to have perfect pitch, this shouldn't be an issue for you. If you play by ear, you should be able to do it without even thinking of what the note is as you play it. If you need sheet music to learn from or to play from, then write it out once so it looks like the key your fingers are playing in but sounds like the key you want it to be in. For example, I sometimes take tunes that are in D minor, pretend that they are in E minor and then play them on my C flute instead of my D flute. Voila! Tune in D minor. But in doing so, I really don't give a thought to what the absolute pitch is coming out of my flute for each fingering I use. Classical players have done the same thing for centuries, they just write it down and play from the sheet music. Either way, it's all about avoiding unnecessary head games and just playing music.

[segv]

Just to complicate matters, the Boehm "C" flute has the same fingering/pitch as a simple-system "D" flute.

It most definitely does NOT.
When you finger the F# on the D simple system flute -- X X X X O O
That is an F-natural on the Boehm flute.
And the Briccialdi Bb key helps with the C-nat......

Good point. The question of "what key is a flute in" is perhaps better answered by "what scale to you get when you lift the fingers sequentially", rather than "what is the pitch of the bottom note".