Grey Larsen and tone.

[jemtheflute]

"Virile" - nah. Dodgy connotations! "Robust" - mmmmm, better. "Huffy-puffy" - well, that's not how I'd describe Molloy or Crawford or Veillon or Kennedy or McCormack or Bradley or McGoldrick or Wilkinson or Skelton or Roche or many others...... (only when they want to be!), though I can think of others who are definitely "huffy-puffy". How about "forthright" or "resonant"?

Thanks for The Skylark link, MTG - that is indeed rather more.......forthright playing (though he's clearly no Conal O'Grada!) - though I think I can still hear that hissy, edgy whistle tone element - I am becoming more of the opinion that that is down to chosen very close miking! A bit much hollow reverb on that clip for my taste too. His phrasing/breath control is impressive, though.

[Flutered]

My guess would be that the OP isn't really into ITM as such - just likes nice pleasant flute playing. That's his/her choice but clearly they shouldn't make such wild sweeping statements. ITM and trad flute like any musical genre takes time to get into. If they stick at it, they'll get fed up of the pleasant stuff after a while and go look for the stuff with a bit of balls and passion.

[Henke]

Ok, which one of you registered a new account just to stir up a mess? Do I smell whiskey?

If you meant me, I'm totally innocent this time.

However, this thread has cracked me up. I don't know if the OP is for real eighter but I, like Jem, have a feeling that he probably is. Wow, hilarious stuff anyway.
Most of the post was of course proof of huge ignorance, but I nearly responded to the- "if you want to make a good tone, cover 1/4 of the embouchure hole, no more"- bussiness, because, unfortunately not only ignorant people say stuff like that. But we've had that discussion before.

I have huge admiration for Grey Larsen and his work. Personally I prefer other players tones, I'm very much into June McCormack in the tone and expressiveness department. But I often find myself sounding Larsenesque when practicing (we do play similar flutes for those of you who think that matters ), it's kind of addictive, but I sometimes need to remind myself that even though it's fun playing with that tone, it's not the tone I prefer hearing.

And to the OP. There's nothing wrong with you digging Grey Larsen as your favourite flute player, I don't think anybody here would disrespect you for that opinion. But maybe you should think again about what you wrote earlier and the reason why people may have responded with stuff that may have "hurt your feelings". Then do a lot of listening, learning, and then I don't see a reason why you and I couldn't share a couple of wee drams of
whisky

[dlambert]

Nice....nice. This does remind me of the good old days. If only Porridge were here.

ludi incipiant

[greenspiderweb]

I've learned a few things from this thread. First, don't believe everything you read-at least, don't take it for face value. I too got a chuckle from this at first, being that it was so overboard, and about a flute player's tone that isn't my preference...but, it seems that all one needs do here on Chiff is to make a few broad sweeping statements to stir the hornets and just sit back and see which side of the fence everyone flees to in their haste. It's so easy, and predictable an outcome that it's been repeated here many times over. New poster? I doubt it very much.

Second, many of the replies have been at Grey's expense, and I don't find that very amusing, after seeing the pokes and jabs. Grey is an excellent musician, and no one can take that away from him. Whether or not his music is to your preference, or hard core ITM, isn't hard to tell, but it really shouldn't be all about that, unless one is very narrow minded.

Third, now I've found that I really like Cindy Kallet, and I like Grey and her together-musically it's a good match, and easy to listen to them make music. Thanks, Jim for posting the link to their album, and thanks to Cindy and Grey for giving me some new music to appreciate. Sometimes it's hard to keep an open mind about things close to us, but it just shows me that sometimes it can prove to be a good thing in the end, at least for some of us that are willing to go there.

Barry

[Julia Delaney]

FWIW, here's a livelier clip of Grey playing a bog-standard setting of The Skylark. Excerpted from the CD that accompanies Chris Smith's Celtic Back-Up book. I don't think that Grey or Chris would mind.

http://www.box.net/shared/pxo1lc41mq

Agreed- very nicely played. Lovely lift, great rhythm. You're sure it's Grey?

[planxtydt]

New poster? I doubt it very much.

I smell a rat. Oh, make that a donkey
wouldn't be the first time.

[cadancer]

Grey playing a bog-standard setting of The Skylark. Excerpted from the CD that accompanies Chris Smith's Celtic Back-Up book.

Beautiful, sweet playing.

...john

[Akiba]

Who here on C&F is even close to the player Grey is? Maybe a small handful, if that. Who then has the true right or the credibility to criticize Grey's playing? Probably no one, so shut your pie holes.

[Cayden]

For fecksake come off it will you.

[Akiba]

For fecksake come off it will you.

For fecksake, indeed .

[jemtheflute]

Who here on C&F is even close to the player Grey is? Maybe a small handful, if that. Who then has the true right or the credibility to criticize Grey's playing? Probably no one, so shut your pie holes.

Oh, not that old fallacy about critics again! Anyone who can observe a performance/art-work reasonably intelligently, react to it and express that reaction by making reasoned and supported comments, both subjective and objective, about what they hear/see is entitled to make an analysis of any example of any art-form. They do not have to be particularly experienced in the field in question, let alone "expert", provided their opinion is stated reasonably and they can illustrate why they have formed it. They certainly don't need to be able to actually do the same thing themselves. Sure, the opinions of experts who have studied an area of special interest or have over time simply had a lot of experience of it may be more soundly based and well-formed, but they are not more valid; likewise those of fellow practitioners who will have means of analysing based on their (degree of) parallel technical experience, whether at the same level of achievement or not, those will be different again from the perceptions and understanding of either the non-practising expert or the novice listener.

I myself have NOT "got it in" for Grey - I still don't have remotely enough experience of his playing to form a firm opinion. From what I know of the man regarding his books and his attitudes, he seems eminently worthy of respect even if I end up not particularly enjoying his playing aesthetically. I certainly am not as good a player, but I am perfectly entitled to make analytical and critical comments based on my perceptions of what I have heard. There is no disrespect in that unless, as in the OP, it is done in an ill-founded and inflammatory way, patently lacking in understanding. If the OP listened to the people he mentions and doesn't like how they play, fine - and if he explains in temperate language why not, also fine - his loss: one's subjective aesthetic reactions are what they are, and provided one can explain why one feels them, there it ends, at least until one learns more. To be strictly fair, he did explain why he likes Grey Larsen. It's just the tone of the way he went about it.........

I haven't poked or jabbed at Grey, though others may have. My first critical comments about him were made only after listening to the clips that have been linked and were chiefly about the recorded sound rather than his actual playing, but in any case limited to precisely what I heard. However, I freely admit to poking and jabbing at the OP regarding overt religiosity as well as other intemperately expressed opinions whose foundations are equally questionable. But in the end, if he doesn't like a Nicholsonian, honking flute sound, he can't control that reaction and is entitled to express it, just as we are entitled to query how he has formed that to us rather perverse view.......

It is perhaps salutory to remind ourselves that probably a majority of the population even of Ireland refer derisively to ITM as "diddly music" or some-such, and don't much like it, and that landlords of pubs (at least in Britain) not infrequently won't allow sessions or move them on because they aren't welcome as regular events by the regular customers who keep the pub in business!

[jcboydilis]

I honestly don't know why all of you have reacted to my comments in this way. I am only trying to tell it how it is. I thought that we were all adults here on this board and would be able to handle it. I guess I was wrong. You have all carried this way too far, and even accused me of not being authentic. I'm astounded and frankly, offended that all of you have acted this way. This forum needs to grow up. Enough with the Grey bashing. Some of you may like other people's playing, but I was simply saying that Grey is way ahead in the expressivenes and tone department. Yes, he does things a little differently, but just listen to the results he gets. I'm trying to offer my knowledge about tone that I've gained through experience.

[jemtheflute]

I am only trying to tell it how it is.........Some of you may like other people's playing, but I was simply saying that Grey is way ahead in the expressivenes and tone department. Yes, he does things a little differently, but just listen to the results he gets.

Thing is, apparently, other fluff aside, most of us seem to disagree with you that's "how it is" or that Grey is "better". (That's not saying he's bad or that he isn't different or that there's anything "wrong" with being different or that some-one's perception of what is a "pure drop" trad approach is the only valid and worthwhile way to play this music.) We seem to have a consensus here that thinks his results are not "way ahead" in tone or expressiveness and that doesn't find e.g. Matt Molloy monochrome and unexpressive. I've just defended your right to your opinion in my last post, but it IS an opinion, not fact, and a minority opinion at that.

I'm trying to offer my knowledge about tone that I've gained through experience.

Clip? I'm not a great believer in "put up or shut up", but you've rather set yourself up to be challenged on this one!

[NicoMoreno]

I was simply saying that Grey is way ahead in the expressivenes and tone department

This is the part that is inflammatory and that many would disagree with, and have, with very clear reasons.

Yes, he does things a little differently, but just listen to the results he gets. I'm trying to offer my knowledge about tone that I've gained through experience.

From your original and subsequent posts, it appears that you do not like the tone of the "popular" irish flute players (Matt Molloy for example). Fine, you're entitled to your opinion. However, saying that Grey is more expressive leads many to doubt your experience because through their own experience (via listening perhaps) the objectors have come to different conclusions.

I am only trying to tell it how it is

No, you're only able to tell us how you think it is. You may be wrong.

Hopefully you will reread the thread and see why people have reacted how they have.

Edit: Jem put it very well. You hold a minority opinion. It would perhaps do you well to try to understand why that is and / or try to detail why you hold the opinion you do. Saying "I think ABC is a better flute player because of reasons 1, 2 and 3." is much more interesting and palatable than saying "Flute player ABC is the best."