Chanter stop key - patented design !

[Elmek]

Hmmm..... wonder what it does for the acoustics of the chanter and looks like a potential problem with leekage as well

http://smtp2.patent.gov.uk/p-find-publi ... umber=6250

What else has been patented for bagpipes - anyone know ?

John

[reedbiter]

Wondering if he has actually made a prototype?! I hate to be a negative nelly, and and I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong, but personally I have serious doubts regarding it's feasibility.

It's a clever idea, and the author has done a lot of work with the patent. He clearly states that using this for the UP's is a no-go but does state that it would work for the Highland pipes. I'm still just as doubtful. IN order to make it work you would need a lot of material...just plain STUFF to fit inside of a very thin walled, small diameter area. The area near the top of the chanter above the toneholes is VERY thin walled and I doubt there would be enough space for this mechanism to even work in theory.

Here are my thoughts...mostly I'm referring to the UP's but the same issues would apply to any other sort of bagpipe as well. (with exceptions to specific references such as the hard D etc. though I would imagine it may cause tuning issues with other chanters as well)

1. The system as described would be useful only as a device that would exist on the chanter itself and would certainly interfere with other keywork..or at least make adding keywork much more complex/difficult and possibly far too "fiddly" for many pipers to deal with.

2. the system would interfere with the bore at a CRITICAL place and I shudder to think of the consequences to the hard D (among others) as well as the reedmaking nightmares that might ensue.

3. I've tried similiar systems, though not on the chanter BODY, and found the plunger method to be inherently leaky.

4. In a system like this the moving joint between the plunger and the lunger wall (the telescoping aspect) would need to be airtight, otherwise the second octave might become VERY elusive...even a pinprick hole in the chanter can cause leakage issues and make it difficult or impossible to obtain the complete shutdown and pressure change to jump the octave.

5. In order to get this airtight seal, tolerances would need to be VERY close. What material(s) would be used? Would a brass plunger slide inside of a brass sleeve? How far would that sleeve extend? The sleeve itself could cause issue with expansion and contraction in the chanter wall which would/could lead to cracks. Without the sleeve system an airtight junction is not very feasible in the long term. Wood WILL move. Either leading to a failure in the mechanism/joint which would lead to a failure of the chanter. Or to an outright crack..which would be a failed chanter as well.

Anyone else have any thoughts? See any holes in my reasoning?

[PJ]

Eeek!

Patent applications are VERY expensive. Bargain basement patent agents won't process an application for less than $20,000. You'd want to be patenting lots of chanter stop keys to make back your money on that!!

Is there any pipemaker out there willing to pay a royalty to use a new design which may or may not be accepted by pipers when they can copy and produce 'traditional' stop key designs for free?

[djm]

looks like a potential problem with leekage as well

Agreed. Shoving leeks up your chanter can never be a good sign.

djm

[Ian Lawther]

The applicant is Nigel Richard who makes border pipes and Scottish smallpipes. I have a keyed border pipe chanter from him that extends the range down to a low E and up to high C#. I'm sure he will have experimented with this before applying.

With regard to other bagpipe patents Henry Starck had three for the Brian Boru piper. The first from 1906 (No 19831) was for the Brian Boru pipe as a whole while 23839 (1908) was the chanter in detail, and 24305 (1909) his alternate "Scottish fingering" Boru chanter. I have copies of these that I purchased while working up the road from the UK Patent office. While getting them I dug through some catalogues of music patents and saw at least one other piping one for an improved non return valve for GHB.

Another piping patent was from Alexander Ross for modified highland pipe drones using double reeds. Ringo Bowen has some information on these at http://www.thebagpipeplace.com/museum/page150.html

To be honest the most interesting things in the catalogues were patents by Adolphe Sax, who we know for the Saxophone, but some of his other stuff was bizarrely over the top....like the saxotromba.....


Ian

[Uilliam]

Like this one o mine?





Rastafarian Views on Life, Politics and Social Issues


Anyways as this post is soooo clearly aff topic I thought I would gently vear it awa frae some eegit promoting a different type o Highlan piping to The African roots of Ireland ...discuss .
(My thanks to Richard Katz for introducing me to the subject via his post of that youtube clip of Paddysgreen etc whereapon a lonely soul in the comments mentioned being black Irish...perhaps ye could forward this to her/him and that way at least some good would have come of the performance)

African Roots of Ireland

The Fomorians

There are many oblique references to the presence of Black people in ancient Ireland. Ancient Irish mythology refers to the original inhabitants of the island as being a giant, sea-faring people called the Fomorians (Fomors), which means “dark of the sea”. According to the ancient lore, they were a cushetic people from the African continent. Often depicted as demons, they defeated the first few incoming waves of invaders, but could not defeat the Firbolgs, who settled the land and lived side-by-side with the native Fomors.

Those myths may have a factual historical basis. It is proposed that the Formorians were a real people who were in all likelihood sailors from the African continent.

Two more invasions, the first led by the godly Tuatha de Danaan, and the second by the Celtic Milesians, took control of Ireland, mixing together with the Fomorians until they were no more.

There are credible sources for the African association with Ireland. The most likely of these is that they were Phoenicians and/or Egyptians. The Phoenicians were Canaanites, which came from the line of Ham. Ham is the mythological ancestor of the Black nation.

The Phoenicians were also well-known for their sailing skills, and are said to have traveled to the British Isles, which they called the “Tin Islands”. Perhaps, before Ireland was a Celtic domain, which it wasn’t until a few centuries BCE, the Phoenicians colonized it. It is noteworthy that the name Fomorians sounds a bit like Phoenicians.

There is also a legend that an Egyptian princess, Scota, left Egypt with some followers and journeyed to Ireland. Legend has it that Egyptians left many ancient tin mines all over Britain but especially Ireland which was their major source of the valuable metal.

Another idea is that they were Taureg Berbers. The Berber language is Hamitic, and the Berber people live in an area from which travel to Ireland would be easily accessible. The Berbers perhaps set sail from western Morocco, and settled on Ireland before the Celts, making it their new home.

Moorish Science Temple founder Drew Ali teaches that Ireland was once part of a Moorish empire, and that the Irish are a Moorish people. Perhaps there is a common root between the “moor” sound in Fomor and the word Moor?


Selkies

Another Irish legend tells of the Selkies, a sort-of “wereseal” that is a seal during day, but a human by nightfall. Sometimes, in an Irish family of fair-skinned, light-haired people, a child is born with dark hair eyes, and skin, and is called a Selkie.

The concept of the Selkies appears to make subliminal reference to the half-breed children that resulted from the extensive miscegenation that occurred between the Celts and the dark skinned original inhabitants that they had met upon their arrival in Ireland.

Many people of Irish descent have distant and recent African roots, and these features can still be seen in the people and in the culture. There are some Irish people with Afros (just like Andre the Giant a late continental European wrestler with afro-hair). In Southern Ireland, some people, referred to as “Black Irish”, are noted for their strikingly dark features, as opposed to the fair-skinned, light-haired north.

Although many Irish descendants are particularly pale, they do have pronounced Africoid facial features, as well as dark brown eyes, and dark brown hair that is sort-of kinky, especially in moist conditions. A sub race of the Irish called the Bronn are noticeably Mediterranean (read: African) in features especially their hair.

In addition to all of this, Celtic music is distinctly different from the rest of Europe, and easily comparable to African music.


Black, Viking and Irish

Unlike Scotland and England, Ireland was never colonized by the Romans. As a result, Ireland remained relatively isolated.

The Vikings established port cities like Dublin. The Viking texts left stories and descriptions of African soldiers captured in Ireland whom they called blaumen[blue-men].

Most Viking references to ”black” in Norse would have signified having black hair as opposed to skin color but blaumen meant black skinned. Most of these blaumen were captured soliders from Moorish Spain. It was observed that:

 ”A prominent Viking of the eleventh century was Thorhall, who was aboard the ship that carried the early Vikings to the shores of North America. Thorhall was “the huntsman in summer, and in winter the steward of Eric the Red. He was, it is said, a large man, and strong, black, and like a giant, silent, and foul-mouthed in his speech, and always egged on Eric to the worst; he was a bad Christian.”"

“Another Viking, more notable than Thorhall, was Earl Thorfinn, “the most distinguished of all the earls in the Islands.” Thorfinn ruled over nine earldoms in Scotland and Ireland, and died at the age of seventy-five. His widow married the king of Scotland. Thorfinn was described as “one of the largest men in point of stature, and ugly, sharp featured, and somewhat tawny, and the most martial looking man… It has been related that he was the foremost of all his men.”"

Uilliam

[djm]

Another idea is that they were Taureg Berbers. The Berber language is Hamitic, and the Berber people live in an area from which travel to Ireland would be easily accessible. The Berbers perhaps set sail from western Morocco, and settled on Ireland before the Celts, making it their new home.

And weren't the ancient Fomorians famous for the quality of their rugs?

djm

[Nanohedron]

Indeed, what IS this topic doing here?

[Uilliam]

David indeedy yer right here, is an old fotie of a couple o Fomorians frae County Galway wearing their traditional rugs at a hoose celidhe the rugs developed in a very short time to



Uilliam