Is this how uilleann pipemakers really are?

[ChaplainBlake]

Found this post on a GHB forum, and though it would be interesting to farm responses on this board. Below is the original post, followed by my response. Oh, the original thread was about a GHB related bad customer service story... (the original poster will be anonymous, my response post is by me of course)
The Original
We in the GHB world are somewhat spoiled by the generally high level of customer service we receive.

I've spent 30 years with one foot in the ITM (Irish Traditional Music for the uninitiated) world and it's an entirely different story there. R*****'s experience is sad to say the norm in the world of ITM.

It's a world where all good pipemakers (uilleann pipes) have ten year waits for their pipes or have closed their order books entirely, saying "I don't even know if I want to be making pipes in ten years!", where pipemakers make and ship out to the paying customer whatever they feel like making whenever they feel like making it, and the customer better feel damn lucky to get anything.

A world where the most highly regarded pipemaker in the world ships out everything he makes with reeds that don't play (unless you happen to be a big name famous player with a bunch of CDs out there, in which case your set comes with reeds that play great).

A world where makers use customer's orders to experiment with new bore designs...and if the experiment doesn't work, well too bad for the guy who has plopped down $1500 for a chanter or $5000 for a full set, because it's being shipped to them regardless.

And if you dare to complain to the maker you'll get a snooty letter saying that "everything I make is perfect when it leaves my shop and any problem exists either in your mind or in your lack of playing ability" (if you get any response at all).

So, R****, it's par for the course.

my response:
P****,
Wow, who have you been dealing with? I have dealt with several pipemakers on various sets, and have never experienced anything even remotely resembling what you described. Every maker I have had personal dealings with has been fine, (if not courteous) certainly nothing on the order of what you describe. I am a no-name in the uilleann piping world, and I have been treated well at every stop by both renowned makers and world class players. I will agree, that many uilleann makers have the reputation of being less than communicative and always behind on their orders--a reputation earned over years of being just that. Still, the top makers have not achieved their reputation by farming rubbish on their paying customers.

I would also contest your suggestion that there is one "most highly regarded pipemaker in the world". Last I checked, there were a handful of makers considered to be the top tier. The best players in the world(and even the other makers) would say so, and I would be inclined to agree. Just look at how many different makes of pipe the pros use to great effect! I can think of 5 or 6 makers off the top of my head who anyone would love to have making them an instrument (and that excludes one who recently died). I have a set in B coming this year from one of them!!

In addition, the guys with 10 yr waiting lists charge way more than $5k for a full set. If the "most highly regarded pipemaker in the world" that you referenced only charges $5k for a full set, I need to get in his queue ASAP!

To be sure, there are horrible customer service stories in ITM circles. And while your experience may not have been great, for one individual to offer their experience as the norm for an entire tradition qualifies as gross mischaracterization at the very least. I openly admit that it is possible that my experience may be the exception to the rule, but I am not speaking as an authority on the whole community of ITM instrument makers.

I know the topic is about a specific CS issue, so I apologize for being off topic. But, I felt it necessary to offer a retort to Pan's assessment of the ITM instrument maker community.

--Blake

BTW, a copy of your post is going to the chiff forums. I am really curious to see if your experience is the norm and mine is the exception.

Sorry for the length! Please discuss!

--Blake

[NicoMoreno]

http://www.bobdunsire.com/ubbthreads/ub ... Post521059

I think it's obvious PCP has a grudge to bear.

My pipe maker (soon to be makers) and all the other makers I've every met have been nothing but polite, helpful, generous, kind and professional.

[PJ]

We've all heard stories of people being messed around and some members of this forum have had the unfortunate experience of being messed around by pipemakers. However, it seems to be to be the exception rather than the rule.

Curiously, we rarely hear from pipemakers who get messed around by customers (not paying for orders, changing specs half way through, remembering they're left-handed, etc.). Is this because uilleann pipers are particularly good customers?

[Mike Hulme]

PJ Writes:

"Curiously, we rarely hear from pipemakers who get messed around by customers (not paying for orders, changing specs half way through, remembering they're left-handed, etc.). Is this because uilleann pipers are particularly good customers?"

Pipers might not hear this, but others do. I have been to gatherings of makers where the dinner topic of unruly customers precedes the soup and lasts well past pudding. It is the luthier equivalent of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch. So it is not just confined to the UPs

[Jose' Scotte' Este']

I have had some really positive experiences with pipe makers, both well known/respected and lesser known, and I have had some negative experiences as well. (However, even with the negative experiences, the makers were always kind!!).

[s1m0n]

In addition, the guys with 10 yr waiting lists charge way more than $5k for a full set.

I suppose the question should be, "What did they charge ten years ago?"

[pancelticpiper]

Well I'm the guy that posted that and that post is simply a summation of the many negative things I've gone through over the last 30+ years, plus some things that friends have gone through.

The reason I posted it was because people in the GHB world have no clue what we in the uilleann world go through to get pipes that work right. In the GHB world there is, for example, one company that produces around 40 sets of pipes a WEEK. These pipes play just fine and some of the best players play them. I can call up any number of retailers and get such a set overnighted to me. The set will arrive in less then 24 hours and will play when I get it. Cost: around $1000.

In the uilleann world:

- I try a chanter from a particular maker that plays fine. I order a like one, wait nearly a year, and when it comes it plays horridly. When I contact the maker he explains that he had used my order to experiment with a new bore design. "I don't think it works that well" he told me.

- I try a number of chanters from a different maker that play great. I order a chanter and wait a year and a half. I explain to this maker my bad experience with the other maker. "I'm happy with my chanter design; I've stuck to the same design for years; don't worry, your chanter will play like all my chanters play" he assures me. But when it comes it doesn't play right. A friend two owns two or three chanters from the same maker, all of which play great and the reeds of which are interchangable, comes over to my place and we compare chanters. Mine has the toneholes in different locations, and reeds are not interchangable between his chanters and mine. Obviously the maker has done exactly what he assured me he would not do and altered his design.

and so it goes... but it's not just uilleann pipes, as I and several friends have gone through the same things with Irish flutes: played several flutes from a particular maker that play great, order a flute and wait, and when the flute arrives it plays poorly.

[sjcavy]

I feel like you have REALLY bad luck Panceltic.

Maybe I should loan you a lucky coin or two before you go ordering any other instruments.



(no offense intended.)

[rgouette]

Again, Bruce Childress is de bomb...

[pancelticpiper]

Chaplain Blake has rightly taken me to task for painting all makers with the broad brush of my personal experiences. This is unfair to all the makers out there who put out good stuff and have great customer service. I apologise.

An example of a great maker who is an amazing craftsman, who is fanatically dedicated to the perfection of everything he makes, is

http://homepage.mac.com/photomorphose/hubbert.html

A number of local uilleann pipers have got delivery of pipes from him over the last couple years and every set has been a delight to the eye as well as to the ear.

[Casey Burns]

Caveat: I am primarily a flute maker but have made pipes in the past including half sets. Occasionally I visit this forum to see what is cooking and if there is anything interesting. I have some observations that might be useful here.

Comparing Highland Bagpipes with Uilleann Pipes and their makers misses many points. The GHP became the bagpipe of the British Empire, and achieved much standardization of design, due to its distribution. It shares the same root as the Spanish Gaita and many northern European pipes. In general these types of pipes are very easy to reed - thus easy to mass produce. Thus you can order one today and get it next week and it will probably work. You can do the same with even the cheapest tourist grade Gaitas made with rubber bags and a single drone.

Uilleann Pipes, unfortunately, are notoriously difficult to reed, due to the acoustical demands that are put on them. For one thing, the reeds are played dry - compounding the effects of even minor humidity changes. Then these are expected to play a full two octaves, have a hard bottom D, etc. There is no standardization - thus a reed that may work for one set may not work for another. Many of the makers tweak their sets in an attempt to make these easier to reed. The old sets by the great names from Egan to Rowsome are commonly at pitches other than A-440 and there is no easy rule to render them to this pitch. Many of these old sets are themselves difficult to reed!

Many players of non-GHP pipes, especially novice players, fail to commit themselves to the chore of reed making, expecting the pipe maker to hold their hands through this and provide reeds. Fortunately there are enough makers of reeds for GHP and now Gaitas that helps - the players of these pipes no longer have to learn reed making. But each Uilleann pipe set is so idiosyncratic that a mass production of Uilleann pipe reeds is but a wish. The Uilleann Pipe player needs to learn reed making and become good at it in order to play. Like anything musical it will take practice, and lots of it. Years of it.

Denny Hall and I once joked that we could offer sets of bagpipes - unreeded - for about $100 or less. Even give them away. But then we would charge $2500 or more for a single working set of reeds. Instead the reality of pipe making, at least when I tried it, was making a set, spending a while to reed it up so that it played well for me, and then send it off. Then the novice player expecting to be the next Paddy Moloney without any basis immediately mucks with the reeds, thinking that these are the problem, not the novice player - thereby throwing everything out of adjustment. Then returns the set to the maker to be re-reeded. Denny's and my business model might work, if it wasn't for the frequent demands for a full refund.

Its hard to run a business in that type of environment! For this reason I gave up making any type of bagpipe except for myself and focused on flutes, which are simple and don't require reeds. If they don't work, the flute player usually accepts the blame due to their own inexperience.

Thus, if you are waiting for a set of pipes, give the maker some space. Lots of it. Email is better than the phone. And one email is enough. More might result your instrument being moved down to the bottom of the queue - if just mentally. Many makers wish they could "Provide It Now" in our instant culture but these instruments are so notoriously complex and troublesome, that this will never happen. Enough of this type of pressure from several clients and the maker is bound to go into hiding. Or just stop responding. Or stop making pipes entirely and turn his business into a giant Ponzi Scheme. It is hard to do the difficult task of Uilleann Pipe making in the mental state derived from nagging and impatient customers!

If you just can't wait, get something used.

The one thing that you can do that would be extremely useful, is to start learning how to make reeds now - not until after you get your pipes. You will then be ahead of the curve when your Uilleann Pipes arrive, finally.

Casey

[Brazenkane]

Are not now so many used sets of pipes available? I know that that doesn't do anything to offset the problems that you have encountered in the past. Indeed it sounds very frustrating. Unfortunately, your consolation "prize" is simply/importantly:

now you are more educated about this stuff than you were before.

[pancelticpiper]

Thanks for that thoughtful and insightful post Casey!

Great to hear about this stuff from the maker's standpoint.

However difficult to reed uilleann chanters are, what is interesting is that over the years a large number of beginners have shown up at my doorstep with David Daye PVC chanters and every one has played great. Easy to get hard and soft bottom D's, good scale, good octaves, no sinking back D, etc etc and that in our SoCal weather (so hostile to uilleann pipes). So uilleann chanters that work right CAN be put into beginner's hands. (Perhaps the climate the Daye reeds are made in is not unlike our own here.)