To Trad or Bash it Out?

[crookedtune]

Interesting story about English retro-soul singer James Hunter: http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/0 ... index.html

He's talking about a different genre, but hits on a question we all wrestle with. I like his take on it, and mostly agree.....

But despite the love he has for the music of the classic soul era, Hunter understands that going forward, a healthy irreverence is what will keep it fresh for audiences -- and himself.

"I think the downfall of any type of music is to treat it with too much reverence, because the people at the time weren't treating it with reverence and they were sort of bashing it out, that was the beauty of it, the spontaneity," he says. "But, when people are trying to preserve stuff -- you've got to be loyal to this or that kind of music -- that's so much nonsense."


(Edited: Actually, I don't mostly agree. I see where he's coming from, but "sort of bashing it out" doesn't work for me. I think building on a tradition requires the ability to play within the tradition first).

[emmline]

I do mostly agree with him.
This is not to say that the original form (or the most original known form) shouldn't be mastered and understood,
but yeah...I find the excessive reverence to be stagnating.

Obviously, this is a different strokes for different folks issue.

[peeplj]

Speaking from my own ongoing learning experiences, I think you have to decide what it is that you want to do.

If you want to play within the tradition, then do that. Learn how as best you can, and try to play as authentically as you can. That doesn't mean you can only play a tune one way; my understanding is that a part of the tradition is the slow evolution that a tune can undergo when it's played for many years, until it becomes your own.

If you want to take tunes from the tradition and play them in some other form or style--take a reel, for instance, and build a jazz tune around it: to do this well takes a good grounding in the tradition, but when you do this, you need to understand that you have gone outside the tradition. That's not a bad thing as long as you aren't doing this and still claiming it to be within the tradition.

If you are a classically-trained violinist, and you want to pick up an Irish tunebook and start playing through the tunes, there's nothing wrong with that, either...as long as you aren't claiming that you have automagically become an Irish fiddler. Even though such a musician might be able to play the tunes quite well (when viewed from their own perspective), the tunes won't be played in a manner that's authentic within the tradition.

Now, within the tradition, you still have a lot of flexibility as to what can be done with tunes. I think the whole idea that you can either stay true to the tradition and it will stagnate and die, or bring it external influences and it will live on but it a diluted form is a false dichotomy. Listen to Altan and Danu and Craobh Rua and Sean Nua (to name just a very few) and then explain to me why it is that you think the tradition is stagnating.

Now I do realize that I haven't always looked at this issue the way that I do now. If you go back several years, you may find where, in my ignorance at the time, I expressed different thoughts on the subject. All I can say to that is that in the interim I have developed a love for the tradition and a desire to play as authentically as I can. This has been part of my own learning process, which is still ongoing.

--James

[crookedtune]

James, I agree completely. And I would hold up players like Brian Finnegan and Mike McGoldrick as examples. Both mastered a traditional style before consciously and deliberately bringing the music to new places. This is not inconsistent with the tradition, or disrespectful of it, and certainly not "bashing". I think this is what Hunter meant, and he was probably not quoted in full.

[I.D.10-t]

I always liked this quote

Kaneshige Michiaki (1934-1995) said of tradition:

Tradition is sometimes confused with transmission. Copying Momoyama pieces is transmission. Producing contemporary pieces incorporating Momoyama period techniques is tradition. Tradition consists of retaining transmitted forms and techniques in one's mind when producing a contemporary piece. Tradition is always changing. A mere copy of an old piece has not changed; it is nearly the same as its prototype of four hundred years ago. Tradition consists of creating something new with what one has inherited.

[mukade]

You have to know the rules before you can break them.

Mukade

[dubhlinn]

You have to know the rules before you can break them.

Mukade

Very true...

The original post got me thinking..English and Soul in the same sentence..well.

There have been a few young English girls charting of late..and bless them they have been listening to their Mommas and Daddas album collection.

The first one to open the field was the young and beautiful Joss Stone..a great singer with a ..eh..is there a word for somebody who has a photgraphic memory for every little riff she has ever heard?..

Her first two albums were note perfect but there was no Soul...no Passion.. no nothing.

Duffy had a shot at it and she got a lot closer to the target.

I will say one word..make that two..Dusty Springfield.

I rest my case..

Slan,
D.

[djm]

I'm not sure we aren't comparing apples to oranges, here. A professional musician makes his/her money by maintaining a high calibre of musical ability and playing what the audience likes. If he gets up in front of a group of old aunties then he's going to play Celtic Lawrence Welk. If he gets up in front of a bunch of headbanger teens he's going to play Celtic thrash. It has nothing to do with what he personally likes. He prostitutes his musicianship to earn his few shekels.

This is entirely different from someone who practises/plays a style of music for their own amusement and entertainment. In this case, the musician can be of any calibre, and can play whatever the heck they like, and can hold as high a standard of purism to whatever imagined acme they choose to dream up or follow.

And they can then criticize whomever they like for failing to acheive and maintain this same artificial standard. It's almost a hobby in itself, in a way.

djm

[emmline]

djm, you are completely right.

Thing is, if I wanted to write Harlequin Romances, my odds of selling something would improve manyfold.

[mutepointe]

I didn't read the article but I would like to add an interesting perspective. Imagine if the originators of this or any tradition were brought forward into modern times. I usually like to imagine the Founding Fathers of the United States of America. Imagine if they were brought forward in time to 2009. I try to tell them how we, in our world, our trying to follow what they wrote back in the 1700's. They just look around and say, "Do what?" I also try to imagine if I had to go back into the 1700's and explain what problems we're having with gun control and equal rights and drugs and illegal search and seizures and I try to get them to bump up the Bill of Rights. And they look at me and say, "Do what?"

I wanna see someone explain to them how someone is doing their best to maintain tradition on a PVC with a wedge. "Do what?"

[dubhlinn]

Mute baby..

I had the foolish notion that this thread was heading into a crack about Soul Music, Originalty and the filthy disregard that record companies have for talent.

You're getting Political here...it is a fine thought..a very interesting point..but get yo ass over to the rubber room...

Did I ever mention Aretha watshername around here..

Slan,
D.

[dubhlinn]

Thing is, if I wanted to write Harlequin Romances, my odds of selling something would improve manyfold.

True.

There's the rub though....Success or Respect.

For a lot of very wealthy and FWIW famous young girls today there is the question of eh..well..lemme see..Soul. Irrespective of Genre.
They are just rehashing old tried and trusted recipes with a huge PR Team that will shift a few bazillion units within that financial year.

There is nothing original or meaningful..there is no contribution to the pool of knowledge but there is a huge ball of money for those who get lucky.

As much as I love a good old boddice ripper.. I ache for one that has something original to bring to the table..or the stereo..or..Mmmmm...


Slan,
D.

[mutepointe]

Mute baby..get yo ass over to the rubber room...

Can't. I gave the rubber room up for Lent.

[izzarina]

The first one to open the field was the young and beautiful Joss Stone..a great singer with a ..eh..is there a word for somebody who has a photgraphic memory for every little riff she has ever heard?..

Her first two albums were note perfect but there was no Soul...no Passion.. no nothing.

Duffy had a shot at it and she got a lot closer to the target.

I will say one word..make that two..Dusty Springfield.

I rest my case..

Slan,
D.

I tend to think Amy Winehouse has come closer than either Joss or Duffy, but that's just me. Adele isn't bad either, but there is indeed something lacking with her as well. I do agree the passion just isn't there anymore, but as emm pointed out, you can't sell something that isn't being sought after. Law of supply and demand you know. I think the current generation isn't as into the soul and the passion as former generations were. Maybe they don't feel they need to be? Who knows. But it seems like the soul has been gone for quite some time, which is really sad. If that's what's meant by "keeping it fresh", then I'd rather not, thank you. Give me some Etta any day.

[Denny]

miserable bunch of whining old hippies