alto/soprano musical question

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 7:54 pm

Could some of you experts please clarify and define the difference between alto and soprano and which is higher. This started as a debate among my daughter, wife and me. Alto seems to be defined as the highest male voice in a four part harmony while soprano is the highest female, boy or castratti part.
Is then soprano higher than alto and is that the proper way to view this?

Another definition listed a modern voice range with soprano, tenor, mezzo, baritone, bass, and omits any discussion of alto. A bit confusing for us non-theory amateur types.

Philo

BobP · Post by **BobP** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:24 pm

My Harvard Dictionary of Music defines alto as "(1) A female voice of low range, also called contralto. (2) Originally the alto was a high male voice (hence the name)which by use of the falsetto nearly reached the height of the female voice (contralto)."

Under range of voices, the Harvard shows contralto as lowest female voice followed by mezzo-soprano and soprano as the highest.

Ridseard · Post by **Ridseard** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:28 pm

From highest to lowest in standard SATB choral arrangements: soprano, alto, tenor, bass.

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 9:23 pm

Perhaps someone can clarify a question this raises for me: In all-male harmony singing, a la barbershop quartet, what are the parts named? Alto, tenor, baritone, bass? I don't recall hearing a male voice called "alto" but truly, I ain't got a clue.

And what about the contra-tenor? He's not a common creature at all, but I've heard one or two on NPR and that sound is pretty amazing.

M (who only sings to herself)

michael_coleman · Post by **michael_coleman** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 9:56 pm

Generally speaking you have first, second and third (as the music calls( of any one singing type. A first soprano tends to sing higher melodies whereas a second soprano still sings higher than a first alto, just not the same part or higher than the first soprano. This would work for the barbershop quartet gig because you generally have a first and second tenor, a baritone, a bass, or even a basso (or bosso, I do not know how it is spelled).

Ridseard · Post by **Ridseard** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 9:57 pm

In the barbershop quartet arrangements I've seen, the parts are (from highest to lowest) tenor, lead, baritone, bass. The lead part is often (but not invariably) the melody line.

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 10:05 pm

Thanks all.

Philo

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 1:14 am

Another bit of trivia...when women do barbershop (a la "Sweet Adelines") they use the same vocal divisions as the men: Lead, Tenor, Baritone, Bass.

In a standard all-women's choir, the division is (highest to lowest) Soprano 1 (first soprano), Soprano 2 ("second" or mezzo-soprano) and Alto (sometimes there will also be an Alto 2 or "second" alto). An all men's choir (no boys) will be Tenor, Baritone, Bass (with occasional divisi in the tenor part).

In Anglican choral music, you will often see an arrangement for soprano, treble, alto (counter-tenor), tenor and bass...a holdover from men & boys choirs (boys are usually classified as sopranos and trebles rather than sopranos and altos or sopranos and mezzo-sopranos). When a mixed choir gets music arranged in this way, the female sopranos sing the soprano and treble line, the female altos sing the alto/counter-tenor line, and the men sing the bottom two parts.

Sometimes people refer to a very low female voice, such as mine (I sing well down into the tenor range, and can sometimes sub for a tenor, just as some tenors can sometimes fill in for a female alto) as a "true alto," as opposed to the slightly higher (and more usual) contralto.

Redwolf

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 3:02 am

Actually, I would say that a contralto is lower in pitch than an alto, hence the contra-part of the name. But there are many ways of naming different ranges, for example, her in Sweden we (usualy) don't use the word baritone, but first bass.

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 9:36 am

On 2003-01-13 04:02, Andreas wrote:
Actually, I would say that a contralto is lower in pitch than an alto, hence the contra-part of the name. But there are many ways of naming different ranges, for example, her in Sweden we (usualy) don't use the word baritone, but first bass.

Contralto is higher than alto because the terms were originally used for boys, not for women (so just as counter tenor is higher than tenor, contralto is higher than alto).

What confuses the matter is that, while Italian terms are common in classical music, not all arrangers use them. In English choral music, with which I'm most familiar, you may find an arranger using all Italian terms (Soprano, Mezzo-Soprano, Alto, Tenore, Basso, Basso-Profundo), or all English terms (First Treble, Second Treble, etc.), or mixing them up (First Soprano, Second Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone, Bass). Confusing the matter further is that parts don't always divide (or don't divide for an entire piece)...so an arranger may not make a distinction, for example, between Soprano and Mezzo-Soprano, Contralto and Alto, Basso (Baritone) and Basso-Profundo: the piece will simply be SATB.

Church choirs originally excluded women and girls (and some still do)...when women started being admitted to choral singing, the terms used for boys (and some men) were simply applied to women's voices...not always an accurate thing, as women can often sing lower in their range than can a boy who sings the equivalent part (which is why there's often little distinction between the second alto part and the first tenor part...many altos can sing tenor, and vice versa).

One of the great discriminations still seen among choirmasters is that men who can sing well up into the female range are generally highly prized, whereas women who can sing traditionally male parts are typically looked upon as an oddity. It's not unusual to see a tenor asked to "fill out" the alto section, but it's rare to see the reverse.

Redwolf

[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-01-13 11:02 ]

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 10:07 am

On 2003-01-13 10:36, Redwolf wrote:

Contralto is higher than alto because the terms were originally used for boys, not for women (so just as counter tenor is higher than tenor, contralto is higher than alto).

What confuses the matter is that, while Italian terms are common in classical music, not all arrangers use them. In English choral music, with which I'm most familiar, you may find an arranger using all Italian terms (Soprano, Mezzo-Soprano, Alto, Tenore, Basso, Basso-Profundo), or all English terms (First Treble, Second Treble, etc.), or mixing them up (First Soprano, Second Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone, Bass). Confusing the matter further is that parts don't always divide (or don't divide for an entire piece)...so an arranger may not make a distinction, for example, between Soprano and Mezzo-Soprano, Contralto and Alto, Basso (Baritone) and Basso-Profundo: the piece will simply be SATB.

Church choirs originally excluded women and girls (and some still do)...when women started being admitted to choral singing, the terms used for boys (and some men) were simply applied to women's voices...not always an accurate thing, as women can often sing lower in their range than can a boy who sings the equivalent part (which is why there's often little distinction between the second alto part and the first tenor part...many altos can sing tenor, and vice versa).

One of the great discriminations still seen among choirmasters is that men who can sing well up into the female range are generally highly prized, whereas women who can sing traditionally male parts are typically looked upon as an oddity. It's not unusual to see a tenor asked to "fill out" the alto section, but it's rare to see the reverse.

Redwolf

[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-01-13 11:02 ]

Ah, I might have missed something here. I have never seen the term contralto. I am just familiar with contra alto, which is the lowest female range, below alto.

It was very interesting to hear that men fill out in the alto secion and not the reverse. I have actually mostly encountered the opposite thing! There you see how different choires are run in different countries.

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 11:53 am

On 2003-01-13 11:07, Andreas wrote:
On 2003-01-13 10:36, Redwolf wrote:

Contralto is higher than alto because the terms were originally used for boys, not for women (so just as counter tenor is higher than tenor, contralto is higher than alto).

What confuses the matter is that, while Italian terms are common in classical music, not all arrangers use them. In English choral music, with which I'm most familiar, you may find an arranger using all Italian terms (Soprano, Mezzo-Soprano, Alto, Tenore, Basso, Basso-Profundo), or all English terms (First Treble, Second Treble, etc.), or mixing them up (First Soprano, Second Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone, Bass). Confusing the matter further is that parts don't always divide (or don't divide for an entire piece)...so an arranger may not make a distinction, for example, between Soprano and Mezzo-Soprano, Contralto and Alto, Basso (Baritone) and Basso-Profundo: the piece will simply be SATB.

Church choirs originally excluded women and girls (and some still do)...when women started being admitted to choral singing, the terms used for boys (and some men) were simply applied to women's voices...not always an accurate thing, as women can often sing lower in their range than can a boy who sings the equivalent part (which is why there's often little distinction between the second alto part and the first tenor part...many altos can sing tenor, and vice versa).

One of the great discriminations still seen among choirmasters is that men who can sing well up into the female range are generally highly prized, whereas women who can sing traditionally male parts are typically looked upon as an oddity. It's not unusual to see a tenor asked to "fill out" the alto section, but it's rare to see the reverse.

Redwolf

[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-01-13 11:02 ]
Ah, I might have missed something here. I have never seen the term contralto. I am just familiar with contra alto, which is the lowest female range, below alto.

It was very interesting to hear that men fill out in the alto secion and not the reverse. I have actually mostly encountered the opposite thing! There you see how different choires are run in different countries.

It's a prejudice, I think, that comes from the prevalence of men & boys choirs in the English tradition. Choirmasters are used to thinking of the timbre of the male voice as superior (and are accustomed to thinking in terms of male counter-tenors anyway), so see no problem with letting a male fill out the female line, but don't like the sound of a female singing in the male line. It certainly makes a lot of sense, in this day and age, to let women sing tenor if they are able, because most church choirs especially attract more women than men, and tenors are rarer than baritones or basses...good tenori are hard to come by, unless you happen to live in an area with a music school or a strong choral tradition.

It's a challenge for me, because I often find the standard alto parts too high (my highest "reliable" note, and that only when well warmed up, is the C above middle. When we sing in unison, I often drop down an octave and sing with the guys

Redwolf

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 2:33 pm

Brava, Redwolf!

Ya gotta love a woman who knows how to use the word "tenori."

M

PS--I'm enjoying this thread, by the way. Thanks for the education!