FAQ help: Second octave D fingering - why vent?

[johnkerr]

I'm ever so glad that Chiff and Fipple has provided the space for all of us to vent about our venting preferences. Wouldn't y'all agree?

[groxburgh]

I've got something further to add regarding the difference in sound between a vented and non-vented 2nd octave D. It occurred to me when alternating between them that what I was hearing as a difference was the fact that the vented note was louder in my right ear (but not my left) because of the now open L1 hole being close to my right ear. So I recorded them from out in front and can not hear any difference between the two on the recording.

So for me playing on my flute the difference is only heard by me the player, not by someone else listening.

I'm not too sure that encouraging beginners to use the vented note because it will hide issues they may have that are caused by poor embouchure control to be a good thing. Given that there are a number of very good players who think non-vented should be the default and a number who think vented should be the default perhaps we should all (including beginners) learn both then choose the most appropriate for a given passage of music.

cheers
Graeme

[Cork]

IMO, it makes sense to first and foremost learn the oxx xxx fingering, if only for the sake that such a fingering could be more universally transferred among various kinds of flutes, including Baroque, simple system, Boehm, and so on.

[chas]

IMO, it makes sense to first and foremost learn the oxx xxx fingering, if only for the sake that such a fingering could be more universally transferred among various kinds of flutes, including Baroque, simple system, Boehm, and so on.

I've never really played the Boehm flute, but have never had any difficulty playing the baroque flute with a non-vented D. Now, the Eflat key that's crept into the discussion, that's a whole 'nother can o' worms.

[Cork]

@ chas

Although xxx xxx could be useful, I've generally had better results with oxx xxx, and cannot offhand remember a flute which worked better with xxx xxx.

Then again, there are tons and tons of flutes out there that I've never had a chance to try, so my experience is limited.

[Sillydill]

I refrained from commenting before, because I basically agree with Jem.

But I have recently experienced a peculiarity! It is usually my habit to vent the 2nd D. But I recently aquired a flute that produces a very unstable 2nd D when vented, but closed is fine. I've also encountered bamboo flutes with this peculiarity.

My main flute is just the opposite. It plays lovely with the vented D, but I must be very careful with the unvented D (strong harmonics, easy to push to A).

So I will propose, Let Yer Flute Decide!

[peeplj]

Regarding playing vented vs unvented middle D, I don't think it could possibly hurt you to have the skill to do both. That way you get to pick what you want to do instead of what you have to do.

May sound like a subtle difference, but it's really all the difference between you controlling the flute on the one hand, and a skill you lack controlling your playing, on the other.

--James

[Doug_Tipple]

So I will propose, Let Yer Flute Decide!

That seems like good advice to me, as well. Even with the limited number of flutes that I have played, I have observed differences in whether venting was desirable for the octave D. Some flutes play a solid unvented octave D, and others don't. There are so many variables (embouchure size and cut, bore diameter/taper, finger hole sizes/spacing) that influence the production of the note that it seems unwise to generalize with regard to venting vs. unventing for the octave D note.

[jemtheflute]

@ chas

Although xxx xxx could be useful, I've generally had better results with oxx xxx, and cannot offhand remember a flute which worked better with xxx xxx.

Then again, there are tons and tons of flutes out there that I've never had a chance to try, so my experience is limited.

it seems unwise to generalize with regard to venting vs. unventing for the octave D note.

These two and other similar statements do take us back to the nub of this whole issue/thread. The physics/acoustical properties of flutes are not really in dispute, and due to them one can indeed generalise that the vast majority of instruments will make a clearer sound more easily and reliably with the vented fingering. That is not to deny that there will be some exceptions - instruments that due to their particular construction may "work better" with the closed fingering (and maybe for particular players) - but I think it safe to say that, on tolerably empirical testing as described in my OP, they will be a small minority. This demonstrable fact of how the durn things work ought rationally to be a guide to how we approach playing them, of understanding how they work and then seeking in our own playing to utilise their natural proclivities. None of which excludes practising and utilising variant techniques for chosen effect and seeking as a performer to use the full range of potential expression.

I still say mechanistic basics should come first - and (as this is not an exclusively ITM discussion/forum) whilst I think it well worthwhile to examine and learn from what the old geezers of particular traditions do/did, I do not think that the practices of a selection of them can be seen as somehow "definitive" of a "traditional" "right way" that is contrary to the more generally accepted utilisation of the instrument which is also well represented within the tradition in question. Just because highly respected and influential exponents of any particular tradition may not know what the heck a harmonic is or about wave forms in flute tubes (or equivalent technical jargon in any field of endeavour) etc. etc. and play wonderfully without such understanding does not mean we lesser mortals who do happen to have encountered such information shouldn't make due use of it. Preserving and carrying forward a tradition, or even just dipping into it sympathetically, needs sensitivity and wide perspectives, not Luddite narrow-mindedness.

James's last post is spot on, IMO.

[benhall.1]

Just because highly respected and influential exponents of any particular tradition may not know what the heck a harmonic is or about wave forms in flute tubes (or equivalent technical jargon in any field of endeavour) etc. etc. and play wonderfully without such understanding does not mean we lesser mortals who do happen to have encountered such information shouldn't make due use of it.

I think we should ignore all the information we come across and just do what you say, Jem.

[Good grief! And after you've paid me such a massive compliment over on the whistle forum, too. Ah, well, why change the habits of (2/3 of) a lifetime, eh? ]

[Denny]

(as this is not an exclusively ITM discussion/forum)

there is that sign above the entrance.....

The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community.

If I wasn't sooooo lazy, I might search for a definition of "Irish Flute".

[jemtheflute]

Ben, Denny, ...............

I'm going off to catch up on about 3 weeks worth of Casualty, Holby City and Hustle (before I run out of DVD-RWs and have too much recorded ever to view) and do some flute restoration work the while for the first time in nearly two months. Need to fix and sell some flutes!

[rama]

salty topic

fact is sometimes i vent and sometimes i don't and nobody's the wiser - but here's the rub: on descending passages, coming down the middle register to the middle d, no venting works equally well for me - audibly indistinguishable from the vented d; but on ascending passages, coming up from the lower register, the non vented 'd' tends to stay stuck in lower register overtones so i vent if i want the clear d. i guess for me the non vented d seems to have a tendency to stay in the register that is currently sounding by the preceding note(s) and it has to be somehow coaxed out of the lower register, venting being a simple efficent way. but i would say try out the above for yourself and see what you get. and then do whatever works for you and don't be afraid to experiment and play around with it.
i find a related exercise is to simply pick up the flute and initially sound the middle d using no venting, it may take a few attempts but you should hopefully find it, and then sound low d. and go back and forth between the two notes without venting to differrentiate the notes. (i find i slighty raise my chin for the middle d and then lower it for the low d). i think maybe this differentiation might help to refine technique to nail either note with assuarance and quality,.... just some more of my no cents...

[Rob Sharer]

Jem,

Personally, I never thought I'd live to see the day that you of all people would chide others for posting repetitive, argumentative content in a C&F thread, but there's a first time for everything!

Now, mechanistics aside, and believe me most of us manage to live our whole lives with that aside, what's really important is the music. Who gives a fiddler's what's happening inside the flute? What matters is how it feels, how it sounds, how it works.

My perspective on that:

1) oxx xxx is great for making the middle D really pop out, especially good for pipey-type tunes where there's a middle D recurring at intervals. See Terry's post for a good explanation. It's also great for a bright, brash D in a slow air. Makes a super-bubbly cran, also great to make a mighty whack to start a phrase, coming up from a C# (i.e. using C# as a grace note, then slamming oxx xxx down).

2) xxx xxx gives a darker tone, nice for an understated middle D in a slow air, especially if you intend to dip the pitch by looking down. It also makes for a subtler cran, better sometimes for reels at tempo, short crans. Use it to keep the middle D from standing out, like in a smooth scalar passage.

There's more to it that that, but those are the major points to me. I use both, obviously, probably with oxx xxx being my go-to. Trying to suggest that there's one right way for some mathematical or mechanistic reason, in the musical world, is absurd. Cheers,

Rob

[jemtheflute]

Nice post, Rob. By far the best description and explanation of the differences and uses yet, I think. You "sell" both ways very nicely. Thanks.

However,

Trying to suggest that there's one right way for some mathematical or mechanistic reason, in the musical world, is absurd. Cheers, Rob

pardon me for indulging my argumentative streak (again ) here, but I very clearly have not at ANY stage in this thread tried to say there's "one right way". On the contrary. What I have been doing is to advocate that beginners/improvers approach the basics from a particular angle for specific reasons that are rooted in fuctionality that can be explained to them so they can use them developmentally. After that, hey, we can all trip merrily off to xxx xxx hell in a handcart as darkly and sonorously as possible! (I like dark and sonorous - and clear and pure. )

Also, isn't there a little self contradiction in saying

Who gives a fiddler's what's happening inside the flute? What matters is how it feels, how it sounds, how it works.

? Sure, you can know what effects are produced how and make use of them without understanding why that is so, just like you can drive a car without knowing how an infernal combustion engine works, but it sure helps your ability to manage how you make things work (for you) if you have at least some understanding of the hows and whys.

All this started because someone asked me why they had seen some players doing something different to what they had developed for themselves untutored. (As pretty untutored player myself I have no problem with that!) I gave an explanation of the reasons for doing it the "other" way (which happens to be the overall historical western flute "standard" way for those very reasons) plus an exercise to help explore the issue while mentioning the case for both the trad authenticity and special effect usefulness of the "first" way. I advised and will continue to do so that IMO it is best to prioritise working on the "standard" fingering until it is mastered, but not to exclude the alternatives. No babies in decanted bathwater here.
"One right way"???????????????
Please don't try to tell me or anyone else I've said what I haven't! You can check back up thread, y'know!