playing antique flutes well

[Jennie]

I'm curious about how many of us are really playing older flutes, not collecting or tiding ourselves over with an antique until we find or afford a new one.

Since Christmas I've quit playing my newer flute and am playing only my antique. Besides being really really careful so it doesn't have an opportunity for future cracks, I'm really trying to play this one well. And it's growing on me. I'll admit that at first I found it difficult to play, temperamental, and out of tune on some notes. Now, I'm thinking that was all me. It is taking more than I thought I had to play it well, but I'm getting better.

Who else out there has experience with playing antiques? Are there any particulars I should pay attention to?
Jennie

[jemtheflute]

I'm curious about how many of us are really playing older flutes, not collecting or tiding ourselves over with an antique until we find or afford a new one.
........................
Who else out there has experience with playing antiques? [/Jennie

Guilty as charged . I think I'm probably kinda known for it round here these days! Check out my YouTube clips!

Not that I wouldn't love to have a/some nice new top-end modern flute(s) too if I ever could! They'd have to be full 8+keyers, though. And not that I can claim to get the best out of my R&R and other flutes - I don't spend anything like enough time actually playing! But I'd never part with the antiques I consider part of my personal tool-kit, and yes, working at playing them and trying to get the best out of them with the best of oneself is a perpetual work in progress, with steps forward and backwards along the way.......

No special advice that wouldn't be applicable to anyone on any flute, really. Just play!

[dholly]

Count me in too!. Irish sessions twice a week in two different Pubs. William Hall & Son Cocus eight-key. Its a blast to play and I received nothing but compliments on its voice and tuning.

[Jennie]

But I'd never part with the antiques I consider part of my personal tool-kit, and yes, working at playing them and trying to get the best out of them with the best of oneself is a perpetual work in progress, with steps forward and backwards along the way.......

No special advice that wouldn't be applicable to anyone on any flute, really. Just play!

I've listened in on you before, Jem. I'll have to admit I wasn't paying as much attention to the instrument as to the tune last time, though.

Maybe part of what I'm experiencing is the shift from an easy-to-play for almost anyone flute to one that's more demanding of precision. The better I sound, the more I'm bonding. But it's nothing like consistent yet. I think I'm doing a fair amount of position shifting, rolling in or out, which causes me to lose my edge between octaves sometimes.

I keep wondering who all the players were on this instrument. I think the last was a smoker; there's a smell that could be a lingering hint of stale tobacco.

Thanks for the encouragement.
Jennie

[jemtheflute]

Thanks for the interest, Jennie. If you've watched a few of my clips you'll see I certainly have just the sorts of issues you mention, especially when recording on flutes that I'm less familiar with/practiced upon - the ones I do up to sell. I've got video clips up on at least five different flutes up to now, so far as I recall - the text descriptions with the clips give the basic info.

[Aanvil]

Yes, my go to flute its a 160 year old (c.) Wylde/R&R cocus 8 key.

Its a ridiculously good instrument... and I'm not the only person that thinks so.

I have played quite a large amount of vintage flutes as well as current modern made big names and not so big.

Right now I would not trade this flute for ANY other. I pined over its brother until this one found me.

The more I give it the more it keeps giving back.

Every instrument will have its issues modern or antique... some more than others of course.

I think there is something to just playing one instrument and letting it become part of you.

Its some thing that has been suggested to me and I'm really starting to see the wisdom in that advice.

Now of course I have a flute collecting disorder and were I unhindered by modest funding of it I would own one of each.... of what ever I could get my paws on.

Its VERY easy for me to get hung up on the geeky tech aspects of flutes but the better I get the more I realize it not so much the tool but the music you push though it.

Play well... yes. I think that is the best thing.

Learn to play it well.

I'm enjoying trying to do that so it works for me I suppose.

[tin tin]

I play a recently made flute, so no profound insights to offer. But are you familiar with this site? Lots of interesting reading, and while it's not geared toward Irish playing, it gives a sense of how the flutes were originally used and what they were designed for.

[ImNotIrish]

Jennie,

I, too, have been playing antique flutes. I currently play a Hudson Pratten, cocuswood and a Hawkes and Son cocuswood. Both flutes are awesome (I will however, be trading the Hawkes for a modern boxwood Bb from Martin Doyle soon). I used to play a David Quinn, Sam Murray, Gilles LeHart, but somewhere along the line got the bug for a good antique and picked up an R&R (#4117). After the R&R, I never looked at another modern flute...well, okay I looked and tooted, but didn't consider pursuing one. There was just something about the sound of the old flutes that got my attention. I had the opportunity a few years ago to play the R&R with a cellist whose cello was made the same year as the R&R (1840), and in the same location (London). The sound of these two instruments together was absolutely beautiful. It was as if the two instruments were having some kind of tonal re-acquaintance. Just gorgeous. With respect to being familiar with an instrument, I do believe it takes time and patience and practice getting to know the nuances of tuning and tonality. But once this is achieved, the payoff is wonderful. Only recently, in fact on the last clip I have put on the posting clips thread, do I feel like I am finally tapping into the Hudson Pratten. And this is on an instrument that is in dire need of re-padding!
So, enjoy the journey...
Arbo

[jim stone]

Jennie writes; ' But it's nothing like consistent yet. I think I'm doing a fair amount of position shifting, rolling in or out, which causes me to lose my edge between octaves sometimes.'

Just to note some options. People like Jon C and Kara Lochridge are adept at getting very old flutes
to play in tune. I've had work done and it sure improved the flute. Also if one has a few flutes
around the house, there is the possibility that a modern headjoint will fit on an
antique body, perhaps with the help of plumbers tape. This can greatly improve intonation
and also produce a lovely sound. Lots of people have new headjoints made for the
old flutes; well, some of us may already have one that will do the trick.

[eskin]

I play an 1857 Metzler 8-key with a Hamilton headjoint to bring it down to A440. Took the bottom C and C# keys off and put them in a box as they interfere with access to the D# key (required for first octave E and F# intonation)

I enjoy playing it quite a bit. I'm able to get a very resonant honk and its Rudall-like design is very easy on my hands and efficient in use of air. A lot of my friends here in San Diego play Olwells but I think this old beauty holds its own in sessions.

Photos at:

http://www.pbase.com/eskin/metzler_flute

[Jon C.]

I also play antique flute(s)...
My current favorite is a Meacham & Comp./ Albany NY. The most beatuiful sounding flute I have ever came across so far. (Well, next to my Fentum, but that goes without saying...) and then there is my RRC and my Blackman's, and the 15 others!
Nothing like aged Cocuswood!

[pandscarr]

I alternate between playing an 8-key Wilkes and an 8-key Wylde (that has been repaired and overhauled by Chris Wilkes), and I have to say that I now find very little difference in playing the two. The Wylde is perhaps less in tune and needs more careful listening to the tuning but is a lovely flute. The Wilkes is a superb flute. They both sound like me when played - I would recognize the difference but my family cannot differentiate between them when I'm practicing.

I guess that I would sound different if playing wildly different styles of flute - Pratten versus Rudall for example. But the biggest factor in my playing is me!

Pamela

[johnkerr]

After 15 years or so of playing a Pratten-style Olwell flute, I shifted over to playing an 1840s-vintage Rudall and Rose flute about a year and a half ago. (Since the Rudall and Rose flute I'm playing was restored by Patrick Olwell, I guess in that sense I'm still playing an Olwell flute - which is a nice link for me since we flute players in the DC area have Patrick as our friend and think of him as our local flute maker even though he does live in the mountains a couple of hours drive and a world away from our busy urban life here.) Why did I switch? Mainly because I wanted to go from playing a larger-holed honker of a flute to a smaller-holed flute capable of a crisper sound. (If these were accordions, I suppose I could describe it as going from a wet tuning to a dry tuning.) And with this Rudall flute I've pretty much been able to do that, although I've found that the Rudall is a much less forgiving instrument than my Olwell flute is. When everything is operating on all cylinders (myself and the flute) it's a lovely thing, but as soon as something slips (like my embouchure, even if it's ever so slightly) things go south very quickly in my playing. This was not the case with the Olwell. You might say that the Olwell has a much larger sweet spot than this old Rudall does. But if that's the case, when I do find the sweet spot on the Rudall there are things there that I've never found on the Olwell. That's why I keep playing the Rudall, I guess.

But as I said, there are challenges with it. Many of them have to do with my own deficiencies as a player, but some come from the flute. Tuning is always an adventure. My Rudall was built to play sharper than the now-standard A440, so I typically have the tuning slide pulled out a good bit - which tends to amplify the tuning idiosyncracies of the individual notes on the flute. For instance, unless lipped down the G and A are sharp to the rest of the flute, making tuning to the A sounded by the box at the session not much use to me because I'll lip that note differently when played in isolation than I will when playing a tune. I usually have to play for a bit before I get a good sense of where I am in relation to the session's tuning. I think that after playing this flute almost exclusively for over a year I've learned by osmosis how to adjust my blow for the notes that naturally would have tuning issues, but if I have the least bit of a head cold that all gets lost and things start sounding not so good. Another big issue I'm dealing with at the moment is the dry winter air. Despite storing the flute in a humidified environment (60-70% measured RH) it has developed a leak at the pad of the C key. This appears not to be due to a poor pad seating but rather because the wood of the channel in the Bb key block that this long key passes through shrinks in the dryness and allows too much side-to-side play in the C key. It's not an issue in the humid summer or once I've played the flute for a half hour or so to warm it up, but I've been forced to keep a supply of rubber bands at hand to seal that key tight any time I head out to play now. (It's rather ironic though that the low C and C# keys will seal and be playable on this old flute and the high C key won't.) Despite these many vexations, I've kind of forced myself to keep playing the Rudall through it all since I went and loaned out my Olwell to a friend while he waits for his own keyed flute to arrive. I guess that's a good thing, but sometimes I do wonder...

If anyone is interested enough to want to listen to the difference in my sound on the Olwell and the Rudall, the Imelda Roland's set in the tune box I have linked in my sig line was recorded with the Olwell Pratten flute and the Siney Crotty's set was recorded with the Rudall and Rose flute. As is always the case, though, there are many more differences evident to the player than there are to a listener.

[Jon C.]

I alternate between playing an 8-key Wilkes and an 8-key Wylde (that has been repaired and overhauled by Chris Wilkes), and I have to say that I now find very little difference in playing the two. The Wylde is perhaps less in tune and needs more careful listening to the tuning but is a lovely flute. The Wilkes is a superb flute. They both sound like me when played - I would recognize the difference but my family cannot differentiate between them when I'm practicing.

I guess that I would sound different if playing wildly different styles of flute - Pratten versus Rudall for example. But the biggest factor in my playing is me!

Pamela

How much did the Wylde get altered by Wilkes? I know he likes to modify the antique flutes quite a bit. Andrew Kirby said they pretty much ended up being Wilkes flutes when he was done. Not to say that is a bad thing, but just curious.

[pandscarr]

How much did the Wylde get altered by Wilkes? I know he likes to modify the antique flutes quite a bit. Andrew Kirby said they pretty much ended up being Wilkes flutes when he was done. Not to say that is a bad thing, but just curious.

I don't think very much. The flute had some tenon cracks which needed repairing, and a couple of the keys and blocks had been damaged (but still playable) which were put right.

The headjoint is quite short, and has a silver band all the way around, with the embourchure cut through the band - as it badly cracked at some point in the past 160 years. But that didn't have / need any further work on it.

p