How do you roll your E's?

[Akiba]

I've been working on my rolls nearing 2 years now based on Gray Larsen's recommended fingerings and techniques. My E rolls still don't pop as I want them to (let's not talk about B rolls--that's a whole different monster). I believe I've seen that instead of Gray's roll of cut with R1 and strike/tap with R3 that one can cut with L3 and tap the same of course with R3. Having experimented with the latter, I think there is definitely an advantage to the R3 roll in terms of speed and pop, but I believe Gray discourages it due to the quasi-note produced is not as melodious as the quasi-note produced by the R1. I'm seriously thinking of switching over to the L3/R3.

How do you roll the E's and why?

And Happy New Year, C&F'ers.

Jason

[Irish Marine]

I roll on E by cutting with L3 and tapping R3. I find it easier to share the movement with two hands. No matter how much I practice, I found Grey's method too difficult for my hands. Find what works for you and go for it I say. If you can't tell the difference in sound, as it happens so quickly, who cares how it's done

[Liney Bear]

I'm with Irish Marine. Grey Larsen could obfuscate a peanut butter sandwich to the point of utter incomprehensibility.

Good advice in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12922

Look for John Kerr's comments and Brad Hurley's thoughts on two handed rolls. Much more useful than any advice I've ever heard from Grey Larsen.

[Akiba]

Thanks, men. Great feedback, and an excellent thread from C&F lore.

Cheers,

Jason

[Trip-]

I also do L3/R3, although sometimes I prefer to crann, just like I would with a D.

[peeplj]

I also do L3/R3, although sometimes I prefer to crann, just like I would with a D.

Sometimes I also do a crann on E, per the Bill Ochs book. This is something I do more often in jigs than in reels.

When rolling E, I'll usually cut with L3 and tap with R3; if I'm doing a double-cut roll, I'll cut with L3 first then L2, and tap with R3.

Akiba mentioned B rolls, to me E rolls are nothing special but B rolls can be very hard to do crisply. Trying to make sure that L1 moves only a very short distance and then slaps back down onto the flute (or whistle) hard seems to help keep the roll as crisp as it can be. I've also played around with the two-handed roll approach on B, but can't make it work to my satisfaction, as even cutting with all three fingers on the right hand just doesn't produce enough of a change in pitch to sound like a tap to me.

--James

[AaronMalcomb]

Practice them very careful-E and you'll be able to play them with E's.

[MTGuru]

Like this:



Oh, sorry ... wrong question.

[Denny]

havin' a go, inn'E

[joshD]

One thing that I learned also, is that as my tone became more pronounced and thick my rolls sounded better. When I could produce a thick reedy tone, I finally could tell the true difference in finger combinations for the E roll. The E note is the weakest note on the flute more or less. In turn, It needs that tonal foundation to produce quality rolls.


My two cents

[peeplj]

One thing that I learned also, is that as my tone became more pronounced and thick my rolls sounded better. When I could produce a thick reedy tone, I finally could tell the true difference in finger combinations for the E roll. The E note is the weakest note on the flute more or less. In turn, It needs that tonal foundation to produce quality rolls.


My two cents

Yessir, I'd say that was about fifty bucks worth...

Your experience mirrors my own.

Just a note about the note E, since you mentioned it...it is a different note than any other on the simple system flute, and on some flutes it does take "special handling." When you are working on building tone, skip the low E, and work primarily on the G, then the F-sharp, then D, then work up A, then B, C-sharp (maybe), and d.

--James

[johnkerr]

Despite Grey Larsen's voluminous output, there really are no hard and fast rules about how to play rolls (or anything else for that matter) on the flute. What matters is the sound that comes out. If it sounds right, then whatever you are doing to produce it is the right way to do it. If you're doing things the so-called right way according to some expert, and it still doesn't sound right, then it could be because you're doing something wrong or it could be because their right way is not the right way for you. If you don't like the way your rolls sound (and recording yourself and listening to it is the best way to determine this) then try a different approach. If that sounds better, go with it. But be prepared to change again if down the line a few years things have changed in your playing (like perhaps you've gotten better) and maybe things that didn't work well in the past might now be working. Technique is a fluid thing.

That said, for rolls many good flute players will cut with the finger above whatever note is being rolled (i.e. R1 for E, L3 for F#, L2 for G, etc) but others will always (if possible) cut with the same finger no matter what the note is that's being rolled (i.e. cutting with L2 for any roll other than B and perhaps A). The specific pitch that sounds on the cut does not matter at all, since it's merely a blip or a separator, a totally rhythmic device that's not melodic at all. What matters on the cut is that the sound be as crisp and strong as possible so that it clearly separates the note being rolled into two parts (with the following tap separating out the third part) and that it occurs at exactly the right time to give the correct rhythmic feel to the roll. As Josh points out, the strength of tone of the note being rolled plays a big part too. If it's a little weak (which is always the case with E), then you don't want to compound the problem with a cut that's not all that crisp either. Similarly, if you find it difficult to cut with a particular finger and it's destroying the rhythm of your roll, then you need to find another finger to cut with that will give you the right rhythm, even at the expense of some lost crispness in the cut. Experiment around with different approaches, record yourself and listen to it, and pick whatever approach gives you the best-sounding rolls in the context of playing a tune. Then go with that until things change and something else starts sounding better.

[jemtheflute]

Sound stuff from johnkerr.....

I haven't much to add save a comment on my own habit/experience: E rolls/turns, and cuts for that matter, are probably the most obvious place where my early (and mostly long forgotten/abandoned) origins on Boehm flute show - I mostly cut E with R1, as one has to do to cut it to (or otherwise transit to/through) an F# on Boehm. I do sometimes use R2. That said, I think that I very often double-cut Es with both L3 and R1 before tapping R3.

[elbows]

I cut E rolls with either L3 or R1, depending on the tune. R1 produces a noticeably crisper cut on my flute (a Healy), so I try to use it whenever possible. But it is a little trickier on the fingers, so I'll switch to L3 if R1 isn't coming out smoothly.

For me, that tap is really the hard part of the E roll. Splitting the roll between two hands makes the tap a little easier, but it's still tricky. In really difficult passages, I'll sometimes switch to what I think of as a "cheater's crann" -- just two cuts (R1, L3) with the same rhythm as a roll. I find that a lot easier to get out, especially when playing at breakneck speed.

[Guinness]

Because of the uneven spacing between R1/R2 and R2/R3 make sure that your R3 taps hit the tone hole squarely. It's easy to get sloppy in a hasty execution of a roll. You should be able to make popping noises without even blowing into the flute.