Any Case Against "Easy Playing" Flutes?

Whistlin'Dixie · Post by **Whistlin'Dixie** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:14 pm

All rise!
M

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:03 am

What I don't see still is why
an easy playing flute doesn't
have the expressive potential
of a harder playing flute?
Of course bad easy playing
flutes don't have that
potential, but neither do
bad harder playing flutes.
Why shouldn't there be very
good easy playing flutes
that can do what good
hard playing flutes do?

If the point is that the
player of an easy playing
is less likely to improve,
cause it's too easy to
get an adequate tone--
well maybe. But that's a
very different point
from the claim that the
flute, because it's easy
to get a tone from it,
can't do what a hard playing
flute can do. Why can't it? Best

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:21 am

Allow me to echo Jim's opinion. I see no reason why an easy-playing flute can't be as expressive as a hard-playing one.

I also am a very happy Copley flute player (thanks Dave!), and I believe it has the double characteristic of being both easy-playing and capable of a wide range of expression.

So, allow me to also thank those (in particular Loren and Jessie) who first recommended Dave Copley's flutes.

Jens

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:44 am

On 2003-01-06 16:46, Gordon wrote:

Jb, I ignored this analogy when it was first brought up, but, well -- it just doesn't apply.
Cars, for the most part, are utilitarian vehicles that most of us use to get around. If we must use this analogy, then think of musicians as race drivers. There's a skill necessary to control the vehicle. No good race driver would discuss a standard automatic family car, any more than a good fluter wants to discuss an average flute. While race drivers may learn to drive,originally, on the family car, in order to truly learn to drive in a race, they need to develop the skill to hug the curve, use the clutch, etc.. An automatic, comfortable car will not make a great race car, or driver, though it might produce a smooth ride and a responsible driver.
I don't want to push this point much farther, as you probably get the drift.
Great flute players have learned on awful flutes -- the thread here isn't that you must have the highest quality, most expensive flute, nor is there a sure make or type that you must have. Rather, the discussion is over whether ease of play is desireable if it is a hard embouchure and focused airstream that you are working towards.
A good flute is a playable flute, so the real discrepancy in what we are discussing is whether the flutes being labelled hard really are (I'd say they're not), and whether flutes made to be more forgiving on beginners is actually a good thing. Playing flute is not, initially, easy. Those that give up learning because their flute is badly made have given up for the wrong reason. If they've given up because it's too hard, well, there's always the triangle.

[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-01-06 16:49 ]

Hi Gordon,
I have to disagree with you. I think the analogy is a very good one. Let's face reality here, 98% of the players of flute, or any instrument, will never become professionals. Of the 2% who do, only maybe 10% will ever achieve any kind of fame or notoriety for their work. So I think there are more people with honda type flutes than Ferrari type flutes out there. Just because an instrument is a utility type flute doesn't mean it's a bad thing, just not as artistically inclined as a Ferrari type flute. Which is no bad thing for a beginner, especially one of us 98% types that will never be professionals. Beginner's need something to show them the basics easily and fairly quickly so there is some gratification for their work. If that weren't the case, Dixon, Sweet, Cronnoly, Rutzen, and all the other good but inexpensive makers would be out of business. The only thing that I think is strange in the flute world is that there are few middle of the ground makers price wise. You seem to have Hondas and Ferraris but no lexus or BMW dealers to continue with the car analogy. Sort of sub-$500 flutes and over $900 flutes with Dave Copley being the only BMW type out there at about $800. Just an interesting aside (Dave if you read this, being compared to BMW is no bad thing

)
Just my opinion,
-Jim

brownja · Post by **brownja** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:52 am

On 2003-01-06 16:46, Gordon wrote:
Jb, I ignored this analogy when it was first brought up, but, well -- it just doesn't apply.

<personal note> I stopped most of my posting to the board because I always feel compelled to expound on, clarify, defend, my posts. I'm unable to throw a comment out and let it lie. This is no exception. </end>

I think it does. The point was not that one has to have the best/most expensive tool to perform the job, rather, that tools that are easy/forgiving enough for a beginner to get acceptable results without a lot of experience rarely offer the control or range that a more experienced user might want.

Stick shifts are usually less expensive than automatics, so it really wasn't cost I was thinking about, it was ease vs. control.

Whether flutes fit the general pattern is open to dicussion. Some of us may decide (for ourselves) that flutes do fit.
There may also be characteristics of the flute that make it not fit the pattern.

Cheers,
jb

[ This Message was edited by: brownja on 2003-01-07 07:57 ]

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:41 am

On 2003-01-06 21:43, ErikT wrote:
On 2003-01-06 21:05, Loren wrote:
Erik,

Most Olwells Bamboos I've owned were very easy to play, but a few were real bears, not the one I sold you, but two others in particular were not easy, at least to me. So, I think there's variation there, as with many flutes.

Loren
Exactly! That is exactly my point. So I don't see that categorization is helpful. I think it DOES take woodshed work, not a particular flute. Do I deny that there are such things as Easy Playing Flutes? No. But I do deny that the line is so crisp as to say that x easy player has no potential in the hands of a professional. So I say that there is not a case, based upon a proponderance of evidence, against easy players... this grand jury is adjourned.

Erik

Erik,

Bamboo flutes have significantly more variation than woodenflutes, because the maker can't control inside and outside diameter, nor the roundness or straitness of the bore. Woodenflutes by the good makers seem much more consistent.

Loren

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:32 am

Yes, I'm really wrestling with my
Olwell bamboo D to bring it up to
tune. Slowly I'm getting it.
I would have sold it but I
realized how good for me
this is.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:47 am

Well, there were so many posts aimed at me, I don't know where to start... hmmm..

First off, Loren, I am not so far ahead that I've forgotten what it was like starting out. I started on a Boehm -- they play easier, and my point was that starting there only taught me so much, particularly about playing with a decent Irish embouchure. Had I then moved to a wooden flute made more Boehm-like in terms of ease-of-play, I don't know if I would have pushed myself harder, as I did on my somewhat difficult first wooden flute.

Secondly, no, I didn't get to play a huge range of flutes, but I played enough to know that a) I was the one that needed to work on my embouchure if I was going to learn to get the sound I want and b) the best flute for doing that should really be a flute made to push me forward in that direction.

Lastly, I don't have any experience on Copleys, and from what I gather they are fine flutes, so I was not putting them in a category of "don't buy, too easy." In fact, I assume Copleys are good flutes and the reason you moved ahead was because of this. I wish I had had one, as well, rather than the antique German flute I started on.

That said, I learned a lot on the German, one thing being that a playable-but-hard to play flute teaches you to work harder, to control embouchure for tuning purposes, and to know what aspect of your playing you need to work on. The German is a bit easy on air, BTW, and that experience made my change-over to the Pratten-style Hammy more difficult. The Hamilton was the fix, but, frankly, I'm still learning. Probably always will be.

Regarding all the car analogies, I think my point was missed, or is being layed aside, along with questions about "why can't easy-blowers" play be expressive.
In short, I don't believe I or anyone else ever said an easy flute couldn't be expressive, nor that you couldn't drive a Ford Minivan. What was said, by me and others, is that -- IF you're playing Irish music and IF you're trying to achieve the level of embouchure suited to a professional player level (as opposed to making money, necessarily), short-cuts that go easy on breath and embouchure control MAY (assuming exceptions out there) actually hinder reaching that depth of artistic ability. Of course, if you don't want to be a professional flute player or a race driver, whatever lets you play and have fun, or drive and get the groceries, is fine with me and the rest of the world. I would rather have a dependable car than a race car that needs tune-ups every week, but I don't want to be the best driver in the world. Just a safe and efficient one. That said, I wouldn't really want to be regarded that way as a musician. If that's okay with you, we have no disagreement.
On flute, I want to be challenged to get better, and yes, I do want to play at a professional level. So I want a flute that gives more as I grow and that I can keep getting better on, rather than play a flute that is extremely forgiving and lets me relax all the time. Sometimes, that'd be nice, but that's usually when I switch back to my Boehm (which, if I really wanted to be great at my Boehm playing, I'd have to work harder there as well, and own a Boehm flute that helps me grow as well. Instead, I'm fine on my intermediate level silver flute).

Finally, I was under the impression that Malloy was playing a Rudall-style Olwell now, and no longer the Pratten-style he preferred early on (though I believe he started on a small-holed something-or-other).
If I'm wrong about this, no problem -- my point was about changing flutes as your focus changes, not about whatever Mr. Malloy is up to these days.
Again, I think everyone should be happy with whatever works for them, but I understood the thread to be about what actually helps develop a professional-quality embouchure. I am not familiar enough with some of the newer "easy" embouchure heads or flutes that anyone is currently making to comment on them specifically, to denounce them or not, as great/good/bad sounding flutes. I only repeat what I've said before, that there are no real shortcuts, and if the embouchure and wind in a flute is made to make life too easy, there's only so far you can take your playing.

All the best,
Gordon

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:21 pm

Gordon,
I am horrified, disgusted and dismayed etc, etc.... You have singlehandedly destroyed an otherwise fascinating discussion that provided a valuble peephole for us non-drivers into the the subtle but far reaching influences of the simple system flute playing/ road vehicles world.

I never got a chance to boast about my patent Rudall cigarette lighter end cap, my long F natural that protracts of it's own accord or the refreshing pine odour that delights the senses every time I insert my key , pop up that cheery little chrome button and open my lovely red metallic flute case .

Shame on you, I'm taking my Honda 50 and going home.

Sinceriously, H.

[ This Message was edited by: Harry on 2003-01-07 14:39 ]

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:26 pm

Erik,

Bamboo flutes have significantly more variation than woodenflutes, because the maker can't control inside and outside diameter, nor the roundness or straitness of the bore. Woodenflutes by the good makers seem much more consistent.

Loren

My point is NOT about QC. My point is that the variations within the bamboo flutes are characteristic of the variations among ALL of the woodenflutes and flutes in general. Do you really think that my easy playing Olwell bamboo is somehow less expressive than someone's hard playing Olwell bamboo? My experience leads me to seriously doubt it.

And my concerns are similar to Jim Stone's above.

I have easy players that are expressive. I have hard players that are expressive. I have found that if I can't get a flute to do what I want it to, it is either broken or I haven't practiced enough on it. I don't think anyone on this board is good enough to fully exploit the sounds of any quality flute that has thus far been mentioned. Even the easiest playing of the group.

I don't have any facts to support this, other than experience. Seeing great players pick up nasty flutes and make incredible noises. Flutes that I couldn't make sound like anything, they fill and exploit with ease. Student flutes with the easiest of embouchure cuts sounding incredible.

So I just haven't seen an adequate case brought against easy playing flutes. In fact, harder playing flutes, with a smaller sweet spot, may allow for less possibilities.

Erik

Erik

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:53 pm

I don't think anyone on this board is good enough to fully exploit the sounds of any quality flute that has thus far been mentioned. Even the easiest playing of the group.

Erik may I introduce you to Harry Bradley, Conal O'Grada, Brad Hurley, Sylvain Barou and probably many others that have not put out albums on this board....IMHO from what I've heard of their playing they could exploit just about anything resembling a flute or whistle.. I wouldn't be so quick to discount some of the experience on this board.

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:59 pm

On 2003-01-07 13:53, CraigMc wrote:
I don't think anyone on this board is good enough to fully exploit the sounds of any quality flute that has thus far been mentioned. Even the easiest playing of the group.
Erik may I introduce you to Harry Bradley, Conal O'Grada, Brad Hurley, Sylvain Barou and probably many others that have not put out albums on this board....IMHO from what I've heard of their playing they could exploit just about anything resembling a flute or whistle.. I wouldn't be so quick to discount some of the experience on this board.

I knew what I was saying and I stand by my statement. Conal, can you fully exploit every flute you own or are you still learning? Brad? Do you still have techniques that you want to explore? Well, those techniques don't reside in the flute, do they?

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 1:10 pm

I suppose I'm misunderstanding what you meant by exploit but I took it to mean "take advantage of". I think many on this board are fully capable of that. But if you mean still learning and exploring I agree with you.

I should add to this that I do believe that some flutes have limits as to where they can be taken. How often have you heard the phrase "pushing" or "driving" a flute. I have heard Casey Burns in desribing one of Peter Noy's flutes using the phrase "man you can drive a Tractor thru that thing!". I think this illustrates that makers are aware of the possibilities and limitations of individual flutes.

I would imagine that if some of the better players on this board picked up certain flutes they could make them sound wonderful but they may not prefer them because they simply may not be able to handle that much drive or the quick transition between notes without getting muddled.

[ This Message was edited by: CraigMc on 2003-01-07 14:28 ]

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 1:21 pm

Yeah, that's what I meant, Craig - sorry I wasn't clear in the first place. I wasn't putting down anyones ability. Rather I was making a comment on the wonderful depth and complexity of the instrument that we play. I daresay that the more experienced I become, the more I see where I have things to learn.

Erik

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 1:33 pm

I think that I should clarify what I'm saying. I agree with you Craig, that certain flutes and cuts of embouchure have different limitations and different possibilities. But different doesn't mean better, which is the basis for this thread. Some people don't want to drive a truck through their flute. Some do.

Erik