Great contradiction with bore condensation

[Henke]

Hello folks.
Hope everyones playing is going well.
Lately I've noticed what seems to me a great contradiction with bore condensation in my lovely cocuswood Firth, Pond & Co. left handed 8-key.
It seems that when I've played it regularly and it seems well humidified, it has pretty normal condensation for a wooden flute. Notably less than a delrin for instance which doesn't absorb moisture at all. So far it seems normal. However, here's the strange part, when I haven't played it for a few days and it must have dried out a little, the condensation seems to increase. It starts dripping out of the foot and drops start to come out of the tone holes after just 5 or 10 minutes of playing. The condensation seems even higher than on my delrin flutes (however this is possible). I noticed this in the beginning when I was playing it in as well, that it had more condensation than both my polymer M&E R&R and my delrin Seery Pratten. When it was played in properly, and regularly played the condensation seemed to decrease, but now when I've not been able to play it for almost a week I took it up and played it for about 20 minutes, and by that time it was dripping out the foot joint. When the flute is dry, it should soak up all the moisture I throw in there, shouldn't it? It was probably 3 weeks or so since I oiled it, and when it was reasently oiled it seemed to have less condensation as well.
Has anyone else experienced this? Seems very odd to me.

Your thoughts?
I wonder if it has something to do with drinking
whisky

[talasiga]

....Seems very odd to me.
......

Is it odd that moisture runs quicker on dry hardwood
and the run slows down when the wood is more moist?

[gorjuswrex]

A guess by me. Could it be that when the wood it dry the moisture does not 'wet' the surface. I'm using the word 'wet' in the same way it is used in electronic soldering here. When soldering at too low a temperature the solder forms balls that ride over the surace like water globules on oil. For a flute it could be that a certain level of moisture has to build before 'wetting' happens.
I use this as a guide to when I need to re-apply linseed oil. If the moisture 'sits' or 'lies' down on the bore it needs re-oiling. For non drying oils I would oil much more often probably each time it's played.

Kevin

[LorenzoFlute]

I noticed that too.
Might be that my english is not perfect, but i don't understand the answers given by talasiga and Kevin.
Henke said that when the wood is dry there is more condensation, and when is wet the condensation is less.
It does sound odd...

[brotherwind]

I notice the same pheanomenon on my flutes. Also I think that tone improves considerably, when the wood becomes wet and retains the mositure better. I guess that covered by a thin liquid film the resulöting surface is more even than the bare dry wood.

[brotherwind]

I use this as a guide to when I need to re-apply linseed oil. If the moisture 'sits' or 'lies' down on the bore it needs re-oiling. For non drying oils I would oil much more often probably each time it's played.

Kevin

Would you really apply oil so often?

[dainforsythe]

Hello,

just breezing over this interesting topic.

One question: when you're returning from several days of not playing your flute, have you been playing another different flute during that time? If you go for several days or longer without playing any flute, is it possible that your body is producing more moisture during the first day or so of returning to playing the flute. It may simply be more moisture blown through the flute rather than less obsorption. I experienced this quite a bit from my highland piping days, and still experience it now with the flute. Just a thought.


Dain

[Flutered]

Anything to do with storage temperature of flute? i.e. if it's stored in a coolish place and you pick it up and play it while cold, there'll be more condensation that when the flute is warm.. maybe when you play it regularly, you store in warmer conditions?

[microphyta]

Hi everybody,
I'm new on this forum and I apologise for my bad english.
I'm a beginner in irish flute playing and I wish to ask you a question:
When I start to play my flute the sound looks good and strong but after 1 minute or less, especially after I played in the high octave and I return to the low octave the sound seems "stopped" and often I can't get some low notes (D and E). Could this be a problem related to condensation? If so, how can I solve this?
I bought my flute 10 years ago in Roundstone, Connemara and I don't know the maker's name. I admit that I never "oiled" it since I bought it: maybe this can help? I plan to start right now using almond oil: is this the right one for this purpose?
Thank you everybody.

Marco.

[Cathy Wilde]

I've always noticed that with mine, particularly in the winter or when the humidity's low. I've just figured the wood grain has tightened up in the dry air and is thus less porous, thus less-absorbent.

As for the flute tone falling apart after a minute, I'm not so sure, Marco. Have you checked for cracks and leaks? It's hard to imagine condensation filling it that fast, though it never hurts to blow out the toneholes & under the keys if the flute's acting wonky ... also, the tenons may be loose in the sockets if the flute's so dried out it's shrunk.

I would say oil it and treat it gently if you haven't played it for a while, just a few minutes a day at first; also, if you're playing in a cold room you'll get a lot more condensation. But if the flute's not cracked or leaky at the joints or crown or anything, I fear it might just be beginner's lip. The best thing to do might be to see if you can find a more experienced flute player to have a toot or two. If the more experienced player confirms it's not the flute, then it's long-note tone exercises for you! Start in the middle of the scale -- around a B -- and work your way down to D and back up slowly, playing each note as long as it takes to get it sounding reasonable before moving to the next. Then do the same going up to B above the staff, paying attention to how your lip has to adjust to get the strongest sound. Do this every day for three months, and once a day thereafter.

OK, seriously, it should help in a few weeks or so. From there start changing notes like middle B to low G, low A to low F#, low G to low E, low F# to low D and then back up, etc. again not moving on until you can play the two notes and the transitions between with the best tone and a minimum of fuss. Then do the same going up the scale 'til it's automatic. This will take a while, but it'll pay off in the long run.

Good luck and hope this helps!

[Henke]

Interesting discussion this has turned into. Thanks for the input everyone.
I don't think it's a factor of temperature as I've been playing in similar conditions pretty much all the time.
Interesting thought by Dain. This might be a factor but I'm not sure. I do have my polymer flutes laying around for a quick toot here and there, but that never amounts to more than one or two quick tunes a day. If I'm planning to play longer, I break out the F,P&Co.
It does sort of make sence that when the grain is dry it tightens and soaks up less moisture. But it still feels odd that a dry flute doesn't soak up more moisture than a wet one. Maybe I just need some time to get my head around this.
Perhaps if Terry, or Casey, or Jon could chime in with their thoughts...?

I will contemplate the matter over a nice, cask strength, non chill filtered dram of smooth
whisky

[Cathy Wilde]

Have you ever noticed how when it first starts to rain on a dry porch or deck, puddles seem to form faster and the drops bounce harder than later, once the wood gets wet?

Just a thought ... but whatever you do, don't feel compelled to test this with your whisky and water.

[gorjuswrex]

I use this as a guide to when I need to re-apply linseed oil. If the moisture 'sits' or 'lies' down on the bore it needs re-oiling. For non drying oils I would oil much more often probably each time it's played.

Kevin

Would you really apply oil so often?

At bit less but that's just me being lazy I think. I used to use almond oil which being a non drying oil needs applying frequently. That's one of the reasons I now use linseed.

[Gordon]

Condensation/water doesn't - and shouldn't - soak directly into wood - the water molecules are too large. Wood humidifies by moisture as a gas (humidity), not by absorbing water directly - if it did, the inside, lower part of your flute bore that channels water would swell disproportionately and crack the flute. When a flute is a bit dry, condensation drips out quickly, much like a plastic/delrin flute. When a flute is well-humidified, condensation adheres to the water molecules already saturating the bore, so there's less to drip out. You may have to swab more, though, as it will build inside the flute, rather than keep running out.

Science!

[Cathy Wilde]

Science!

I'm just so glad you didn't say it has something to do with surface tension. That seems to be the answer for everything including the economy these days and my Philistine brain still can't quite grok the concept.