when to tongue

[chrisp]

I often read, using cuts instead of tonguing is perhaps a better articulation.
playing a tune without tonguing is a good way to learn cuts and other articulations.
But to stop and start a note sometimes i need to use my tongue, is this regarded as tonguing too?
Sometimes i slightly tongue the start of an ornament, but it's so slight that it's not heard.
Also i move my tongue further back in my mouth to create subtle changes, is this tonguing?

There are some players who use a lot of tonguing, Brian finnegan.

It's just that there seems to be a lot of advise on trying to tongue less.
Any thoughts on this?

thanks Chris

[Cayden]

Listen to yourself. If you're getting the sound you're aiming for you're doing OK. No hard and fast rules.

[Guinness]

This has been discussed to death and obviously contentious (just search). The issue is not whether tonguing is verboten but rather what musical outcome one is trying to achieve. If one wants to sound like BF then one will tongue certain notes (not all) and to the same degree he does. It's really that simple.

[straycat82]

Tonguing itself is not a bad technique and should not be feared or avoided. Develop it as you would your cuts, intonation or breathing habits and use it (or don't use it) where it is needed to give you the sound you're after.
The best thing you can do, as was mentioned above, is to listen.

[Ballyshannon]

Used sparingly, I can get some interesting effects incorporating tonguing with cuts, depending on the flow of the tune I'm playing. You don't necessarily have to use one OR the other. Mix 'n match.

[pipersgrip]

Used sparingly, I can get some interesting effects incorporating tonguing with cuts, depending on the flow of the tune I'm playing. You don't necessarily have to use one OR the other. Mix 'n match.

Yes, that is what I was going to say. Kevin Crawford's style on the whistle is awesome.

[chrisp]

This has been discussed to death and obviously contentious (just search). The issue is not whether tonguing is verboten but rather what musical outcome one is trying to achieve. If one wants to sound like BF then one will tongue certain notes (not all) and to the same degree he does. It's really that simple.

Sorry i asked, i guess i'd better search the archives next time before i post
But thanks for answering at least some of what i asked.

[buddhu]

The first response really summed it up, Chris. Whatever gets the noise you want to hear.

The more stuff you listen to, the more you'll get an idea of what sounds you'd like to produce. Some people like to approximate a pipes kind of style, others like to do it more fiddle-like. Others prefer a pretty staccatto (sp?) approach with lots of tonguing.

You get the same thing with fiddle. In that case it's often partly a regional style thing. Some people play lots of fluid legato while others hack away with dramatic staccatto bowing.

I think it's good to develop one's finger ornamentation to the point where you tongue through choice rather than to achieve something that one's other skills haven't quite got covered. That way all your options are open.

[chrisp]

I think it's good to develop one's finger ornamentation to the point where you tongue through choice rather than to achieve something that one's other skills haven't quite got covered. That way all your options are open.

Thanks that really answers it all

[ubizmo]

As a recovering recorder player, my initial tendency was to tongue everything. I've only been playing a couple of months, but my current thinking about it is....

1. Tonguing isn't "bad" but it overlooks some of the inherent advantages of the whistle, notably the fairly linear fingering. If you try to play a recorder without tonguing, the cross-fingering will tend to result in a sound that isn't "clean." Not only that, but to get the 2nd octave notes on a recorder, you need the right "attack" and tonguing makes that possible. The whistle, which is limited in some ways, doesn't have these particular limitations, so you can play through just about the whole range of the instrument without needing to do much tonguing. This creates the possibility of a more liquid sound than you can usually get on a recorder, and that's therefore the signature sound of a whistle. I'm a long, long way from taking full advantage of it, but I can see where I need to go.

2. My own aesthetic preference, at the moment, is to "attack" certain (not all) cuts with light tonguing. It gives the cut a little more mojo, and I like that. I may change my mind about it later, but at the moment it's a style I favor.

[Guinness]

I think it's good to develop one's finger ornamentation to the point where you tongue through choice rather than to achieve something that one's other skills haven't quite got covered. That way all your options are open.

Thanks that really answers it all

Well if the ultimate goal is to maximize one's ability to articulate, then there's also:

1) smooth / legato playing (no ornaments or tonguing)
2) breathing
3) accenting (related to both breathing and fingering)

[free-feet]

I spent the first year learning the whistle tonguing a great deal as i used to play classical brass and recorder so it seemed very normal for me to do that and quite abnormal to play without.

Second year i forced myself to stop tonguing on everything i was doing unless i absolutely had to. That was a very difficult time at first but i stuck with it and after a few months settled into playing that way.

Third year i started to learn by ear and that started to show me from other's playing places where tonguing could be used effectively.

Now into my 4th year and tend to mix it up a little. Some tunes i play with a fair bit of tonguing, others with none, but most tunes with just a little here and there where it feels appropriate.

I kinda like the differences in people's playing when it comes to where and how they use their tongues. Listen to lots of players and pick and mix into your own playing what floats your boat about theirs.